Spoilers Star Trek: Khan 1x01 - "Paradise"

Christopher said:

I'm wondering if maybe the kids were hidden in a separate part of the Botany Bay with shielding that the Enterprise was unable to scan through, but I doubt that 20th-century (or 21st-century in the rewritten timeline) shielding methods would have been able to fool 23rd-century sensors. And of course Kirk would've had to find out when they reached Ceti Alpha V.

But it is pretty much necessary to explain all Khan's twentysomething followers in TWOK, 15 years after being stranded (or 18 years per the Chronology's inexplicable retcon that even Michael Okuda didn't remember the reason for when I asked him about it). At least, it's more straightforward than Greg Cox's handwave that they were born on Ceti Alpha V and matured at an accelerated rate (and it avoids the ramification that the crew that got blown up on the Reliant would've been mostly underage).

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The jump from 15 to 18 years was likely to keep the events of TWOK closer to The Final Frontier, which has to be set 20 years after Day of the Dove, approximately?

That's my assumption about things, anyway. To shorten the gap between films.

Also, Generations made it very difficult to fit TWOK before 2284.

CaptChris42 said:

The jump from 15 to 18 years was likely to keep the events of TWOK closer to The Final Frontier, which has to be set 20 years after Day of the Dove, approximately?

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Well, 20 years after "Balance of Terror," since there was no contact with the Romulans before then. But then, why not fudge ST V's 20 years instead of TWOK's 15 years? After all, it was Caithlin Dar who mentioned that figure, so she could've been speaking in Romulan or Nimbian years.

And even so, the Chronology's dating doesn't work, because it puts TWOK & TSFS in 2285, TVH in '86, and TFF in '87. TSFS can be no more than a couple of weeks after TWOK, given the rate of the regenerated Spock's aging. TVH is explicitly only 3 months later, although I suppose there could be a time jump from the climax to the trial scene and the intro of the E-A, but probably not more than a couple of months. And TFF seems to pick up fairly soon after TVH, although Harve Bennett asserted it was 6 months later. So I can't believe the four films could possibly span more than a year.

CaptChris42 said:

The jump from 15 to 18 years was likely to keep the events of TWOK closer to The Final Frontier, which has to be set 20 years after Day of the Dove, approximately?

That's my assumption about things, anyway. To shorten the gap between films.

Also, Generations made it very difficult to fit TWOK before 2284.

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Michael Okuda said in his Star Trek Encyclopedia that he formed the timeline on the basis of TOS being set 300 years after production. So Space Seed automatically became 2267.

If he doesn't remember why he set WoK 18 years after Space Seed instead of 15 years, we can still figure out why from the evidence. The first is that WoK itself derails Okuda's 300 year "rule". The wine that Kirk drinks for his birthday is said to be from "2283". So WoK HAS to be later than that.

Furthermore, ST4 promotional material, even though it's not mentioned in the film itself, said that the crew went back exactly 300 years to 1986, setting it in 2286.

Given how little time passes in-universe between WoK to ST4 AND taking the wine year in WoK into account, 2285 is as best a placement as you can make for WoK (and even THAT's wonky as it's set in March 2285 around Kirk's birthday, 3 months pass between ST3 and ST4, which means there has to be an at least 6 month gap between ST2 and ST3).

This isn't the last time that a wine bottle mucked up timeline placements, the same happened in Picard locking season 2 to mere months before season 3

Yistaan said:

The wine that Kirk drinks for his birthday is said to be from "2283". So WoK HAS to be later than that.

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Only if you assume it's a Gregorian calendar date. Before TNG: "The Neutral Zone" locked down its calendar year as 2364, requiring TOS to be around a century earlier, many fans and a few professional novelists followed the Spaceflight Chronology dating scheme which put TOS in the first decade of the 23rd century (to reconcile with the "200 years" references in "Tomorrow is Yesterday" and "Space Seed"), so that TWOK would've been maybe 2222 or thereabouts. When TWOK came along with the 2283 date, many fans speculated that it was a Romulan calendar date or a stardate.

Yistaan said:

6 months pass between ST3 and ST4

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No, Kirk's log entry says "We are in the third month of our Vulcan exile," which means there are only 2-3 months between movies.

I think by the time the chronology was laid out the early 23rd century for TOS would soon be clashing with reality with the SS Valiant reaching the galactic barrier supposedly 200 years before TOS, which anyone could tell wasn't going to be happening anytime soon. It's bad enough Trek started using real world dates. Once they decided that 2283 in WoK wouldn't be a stardate, that was the best way to move forward with the late 23rd century to buy time until Trek clashed with real world.

Yistaan said:

I think by the time the chronology was laid out the early 23rd century for TOS would soon be clashing with reality with the SS Valiant reaching the galactic barrier supposedly 200 years before TOS, which anyone could tell wasn't going to be happening anytime soon. It's bad enough Trek started using real world dates. Once they decided that 2283 in WoK wouldn't be a stardate, that was the best way to move forward with the late 23rd century to buy time until Trek clashed with real world.

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Roddenberry always preferred to keep the exact date vague so there'd be wiggle room. I'm convinced that the only reason we got the 2364 date in "The Neutral Zone" was because it was shot from a first-draft script due to the 1988 writers' strike. If it had gotten rewritten, the date reference might have been deleted.

The Valiant is the one case where I'm most annoyed by the Chronology's insistence on treating every onscreen date reference (except TWOK's 15 years) as exact rather than rounded up or down, so that it said the Valiant was launched only four years after Cochrane's first experimental warp flight -- or only two years after the final date settled on in FC. It's utterly ridiculous to suggest it would've been so soon, and it's ridiculously unlikely that the Enterprise would've run across its marker buoy exactly 200 years after its launch rather than 183 years or something, which they rounded up to 200.

TrekMovie has an interview up with co-writer Kirsten Beyer on the development of the series

some quotes...

on if KHAN is canon:

I don’t know the answer to that, yet. There are conversations I need to have with people because I could see arguments for both. But I don’t know where that’s going to fall. And I hope, ultimately, it doesn’t matter. Come to the story. Enjoy the story or don’t. It’s not going to contradict anything that we already know, that was previously established. But it is going to make it deeper and richer in ways I don’t think you can quite imagine yet.

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on revisions to Meyer's version:

So there were nine scripts and kind of the full shape of the thing. And Nick had a very clear story he wanted to tell, which was essentially Khan as a tragic hero, which I thought was an interesting take. The challenge that was in front of us was that when Nick had made Wrath of Khan, there were 80 hours of Star Trek in existence or so. And now there are like over 900. And he wasn’t familiar with most of that. He really had no idea how much Khan and the Augments and that whole thing had begun to impact other areas of canon and knock up against other stories. So it was first very important to make sure that the story we were telling lined up with the much bigger picture.

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it looks like Mack did a revision of Meyer, and then Beyer then did a revision of Mack's draft, adding the Excelsior framing story:

So Nick had a ton of story, and David and I set about sorting through it and figuring out how much we were actually going to be able to do, and how best to do that. And then David wrote the writer’s drafts, and then I took it from there.

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the kids element was added by Mack and Beyer (the Augment infertility angle was already part of Meyer's backstory, going off the original script leaks)

So it was a combination. Obviously we had Joachim and Joaquin, from “Space Seed” and Wrath. I also remember early on pointing out to Nick that he had a lot of young people on the planet, in the people who survived to Wrath of Khan. Joaquin looks like he’s 17, everybody else looks like they’re 30 or 25, and just do the math. That’s not possible unless they were having babies, which, even then, they wouldn’t have been old enough. Or some of the people who came were younger. So that dynamic was something that David and I came up with that I think really also broke the story open in interesting ways, this intergenerational sort of issue.

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EDITED TO ADD: not sure if this thread is the best place for this, but as it contains spoilers, it felt better to put it here than the "News" thread or to try starting a "[SPOILERS] General Discussion Thread: Khan".

James Cole said:

it looks like Mack did a revision of Meyer, and then Beyer then did a revision of Mack's draft, adding the Excelsior framing story:

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Not exactly. The Excelsior framing story was part of my and Kirsten’s story plan from the beginning, as we began discussing the overall structure of the series, and of each individual episode within it. Many other cool and intriguing elements were added by Kirsten during the revisions process, and I offered some final notes on late drafts of all the scripts.

I completely forgot Wrenn Schmidt was voicing Marla, I didn't even realize it was her.

I hope this doesn't come off the wrong way but the sudden "strong, independent" Marla characterization pulled me out of the story just because of how jarring it was following from Space Seed. Yes, I get it, I agree that Marla's characterization in TOS was blatantly sexist. That being said, that's how she was written and deviating too much from it makes it even more obvious that real world concerns are affecting the natural flow of characterization--just leave Marla as is and introduce another strong independent female character like an augment or even that researcher woman on the Excelsior. (Ironically the researcher woman also fell into sexist tropes by having her as overly emotional and unreasonable so any "progress" made in altering Marla into a modern woman-power girlboss is literally steamrolled by the Dr. Rosalind Lear character)

Yistaan said:

-just leave Marla as is

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no

It's not the 1960s anymore. Writing Marla in this audio drama the way she was written in Space Seed wouldn't fly any more than if SNW were to stick to TOS's depictions of Uhura or Chapel.

Nerys Myk said:

Unless they cover Khan's childhood, I'm not sure how they could reference the SNW take.

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My assumption was the mention of coupling with 'humans' and the 'diluted' gene pool back on Earth was a reference to La'an's heritage.

Seeing if the second episode was available on YouTube and found this interview with Kirsten Beyer.

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Turtletrekker said:

Seeing if the second episode was available on YouTube

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It should come out on Monday.

Turtletrekker said:

Seeing if the second episode was available on YouTube and found this interview with Kirsten Beyer.

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Cliff Notes version thanks to Youtube to Transcript and LLMs...

Summary of the Interview with Kirsten Beyer
1. Reimagining Khan: From Villain to Complex Figure
Beyer immediately challenges the simplistic view of Khan as a pure villain. She describes him as a complex, tragic figure—"a guy with his own agenda"—whose history from the original episode "Space Seed" is full of fascinating contradictions (e.g., a tyrant who was also considered a "uniquely benevolent ruler"). Her goal was to explore how close Khan came to achieving his glorious vision before it was taken away, moving beyond the "bad guy doing bad things" trope.

2. Sympathizing with a Future Tyrant
Beyer admits she found herself sympathizing with Khan more than she expected. A key point is that this story takes place before the events of "The Wrath of Khan." He hasn't yet developed his iconic hatred for Kirk. The drama focuses on building the foundation of his life and relationships brick by brick, with the hope that the audience will be "crossing your fingers hoping till the last minute that maybe it won't have to happen this time," despite knowing the inevitable tragic outcome.

3. The Crucial Re-invention of Marla McGivers
This was both an appeal and a "mandate" for Beyer. She acknowledges that the character's portrayal in "Space Seed" is a product of its time and reads as abusive by modern standards. Her mission was to transform McGivers into a fully realized, strong character who is Khan's equal and partner.

• She is a historian on the Enterprise, and Beyer explored what her daily life and motivations would be.
• Their relationship is reimagined as one where McGivers unlocks vulnerability and the capacity for partnership in Khan, which Beyer sees as a heroic act of growth on his part.
• This dynamic makes their romance believable and adds significant depth to the story.

4. Balancing Legacy and Innovation
Beyer's approach to canon was to not abandon anything that was known before. Her challenge was to reconcile the existing contradictions within Khan's established history and find a way to make all of it true, then extrapolate new elements that feel authentic to the character and world.

5. A Rich Cast of Characters
The audio drama features a full ensemble beyond Khan and McGivers. Beyer emphasized that every character has their own problems, motivations, and arcs, and the actors "knocked it out of the park." She specifically highlights exploring the community of Augments, including the "young ones" who logically must have been born on Ceti Alpha V to explain their presence in "The Wrath of Khan."

6. Contemporary Themes
The story reflects classic Star Trek themes of leadership, power, and identity. Beyer notes that the tragedy unfolds not necessarily from malicious intent, but from a series of actions and decisions that lead to the worst possible outcome—a lesson she hopes resonates with audiences.

7. The Joy of the Audio Format
Beyer expresses that while the story may be light on spaceship battles, it is deeply rooted in Star Trek's emotional and character-driven values. The audio format allows for a fresh depth and immediacy in experiencing Khan's world, making it a "delightful" though "untraditional" Star Trek experience.

8. Fun Speculation: Khan in Another Era
When asked which other Trek era would be interesting for Khan, Beyer's immediate, playful answer was the Temporal Wars, pondering the drama of a post-"Wrath of Khan" Khan navigating time travel conflicts.

Yistaan said:

I hope this doesn't come off the wrong way but the sudden "strong, independent" Marla characterization pulled me out of the story just because of how jarring it was following from Space Seed. Yes, I get it, I agree that Marla's characterization in TOS was blatantly sexist. That being said, that's how she was written and deviating too much from it makes it even more obvious that real world concerns are affecting the natural flow of characterization--just leave Marla as is and introduce another strong independent female character like an augment or even that researcher woman on the Excelsior. (Ironically the researcher woman also fell into sexist tropes by having her as overly emotional and unreasonable so any "progress" made in altering Marla into a modern woman-power girlboss is literally steamrolled by the Dr. Rosalind Lear character)

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We only see Marla once canonically. Maybe her actions in "Space Seed" are the actions that are out of character. I could see her as becoming enamored with Khan because of what she knew of him from her own research. Thinking of Khan as long dead, she may have nurtured some idealized or semi-idealized image of him in her own thoughts, never imagining that she'd actually encounter him alive. That might lead her to join Khan in "Space Seed," thinking somehow that he's in the right. (I haven't watched the episode in ages, so I may be overlooking some details.) Khan's actions against Kirk and the crew when he takes over the Enterprise end her idealized image of him, however.

Then, when Kirk gives her the opportunity to join Khan in exile, she chooses to go, not because she's still enthralled with him, but out of a desire to get a first-hand account of how he and his followers settle this new land. (I think it also lets her escape charges of mutiny, if I remember the episode correctly.)

As an academic, I also think of her as a scholar. Maybe some of her motivation is the idea that she'll eventually write some ground-breaking account of Khan's return and exile and what it says about the kind of people who are driven to leadership and the accumulation of power. That would be consistent with what she's saying in the podcast episode. ("No, Khan, I'm not going to share your tent. I'm here to continue my historical research by seeing what happens to your community" or something like that.)

As far as Dr. Lear goes, I don't have a good enough sense of her as character yet to judge whether her portrayal is "sexist" in some way.

James Cole said:

8. Fun Speculation: Khan in Another Era
When asked which other Trek era would be interesting for Khan, Beyer's immediate, playful answer was the Temporal Wars, pondering the drama of a post-"Wrath of Khan" Khan navigating time travel conflicts.

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The Star Trek Frontiers: Return of Khan had Khan surviving the Battle of the Mutara Nebula (hey we never saw a body in WoK), time traveling to the 24th century to cause trouble for Picard and Sisko, and the 1701-A following in pursuit to finish the job. It's pretty absurd, but Khan surviving WoK isn't a new idea.

TheUsualSuspect said:

That might lead her to join Khan in "Space Seed," thinking somehow that he's in the right. (I haven't watched the episode in ages, so I may be overlooking some details.) Khan's actions against Kirk and the crew when he takes over the Enterprise end her idealized image of him, however.

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Khan outright tells Marla "I want to take over this ship help me" and she refuses and then he plays hard to get until she accepts. There was nothing academic in any of that exchange nor was it written in a way that indicated that Khan had only benevolent intentions in mind and somehow tricked McGivers (heck the way Khan proposes his plan is so obviously evil that if Montalban had a mustache he'd probably be twirling it).

There was just no way to see it other than as Marla joining in so she could get her jollies (I guess Pike should've kept the holodeck so she could deal with her hormones with a holo-Khan). If it were something like, "Help me and my augments escape before the Fed detains us" or "Get me on the Botany Bay and get it operational so I can flee before Starfleet reinforcements arrive now that they suspect who I am" then MAYBE Marla could claim to have been acting solely out of sympathy. But Khan outright demands her, in as evil a manner as possible, to help him take over the Enterprise.

Yistaan said:

(hey we never saw a body in WoK)

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Because he was right next to the torpedo when it blew up, and was presumably vaporized along with everyone else aboard when the Reliant's antimatter bottles breached. Even Into Darkness's magic healing blood wouldn't have protected him from being completely vaporized in a fraction of a second.

Turtletrekker said:

Seeing if the second episode was available on YouTube and found this interview with Kirsten Beyer.

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Sounds like this season mostly or entirely covers the period before the disaster, but I could just be misinterpreting an attempt to not give any spoilers.

As far as McGivers’ original portrayal, I remember a Tumblr post going around with someone’s reaction to seeing “Space Seed,” and thinking Kirk was being uncharacteristically harsh trashing the liberal arts with his crack about the useless historian, and then coming around and realizing McGivers would’ve actually been incredibly annoying to live and work with, what with her covering her walls with her own fan-art of dictators and all.

It smelled a little bullshitty when she said to Khan during their fight that she was just in it to see history first-hand, but maybe she was more truthful than I gave her credit for. It could be part of her personality, and she’s still putting her special interest over personal connections, and Khan has just suffered the whiplash of shifting from the former to the latter.