Spoilers The Timeless Children grade and discussion thread

Agreed. I was not a fan of that scene. She knows what the right decision is for the good of the many. And, she couldn't do it. That's a fail for her character. Makes her look weak in my book because she's not able to make the hard decisions.

 

tldr

 

It wasn't ratings that killed it back then and it won't be ratings now.

 

I hate to defend the episode, but didn't she make the decision in Day that the Doctor never would do that again? Of course, he also found another way, and had to until three regenreations/lifetimes later for the solution to come to him, but still.

That said, the biggest fail for me in that scene is that the Doctor gladly walks away after a COMPLETE STRANGER to her decides to sacrifice himself. It boggles the mind, really.

 

Nope. But they help.

And what I really mean by comparing it to season 24 isn’t the ratings anyway.

 

They're called hard decisions for a reason. Could you press the button if it were your world? That the Doctor was confronted with one and made a choice, a choice informed by past experience, as @Emperor-Tiberius noted, is not the problem. The problem is that an alternative arrived so conveniently, with no setup whatsoever. That the Master will inevitably prove to have escaped, likely with his new CyberMasters, is potentially another issue, as it might render the moment rather hollow, depending on the storytelling.

If there's a problem with Chibnall's, it's that it's often perfunctory, with little effort to build things in, to sow seeds. He's not doing enough hard graft, in my opinion, which can leave things feeling a little unsatisfactory. This moment is a clear case in point.

 

It's not whether or not I'd push the button. Although, I hope I would. Rather, what would the character of the Doctor do? Would the Doctor really take the short term easy way out and then let more suffer later? I hope not!

Although, I agree there are other options. Let the Doctor agonize over it. Make the decision. But then when she's about to push the button herself, the guy comes up behind her. Knocks her out and gets her to safety. And then does it himself. Something along those lines. Bit of a cop out but better than doing the wrong thing!

 

Uuuuum That's always been how the Doctor was.

He couldn't make the hard decision in Genesis either.

Oh and The Doctor has always found a way to get someone else to do the thing they couldn't do.

 

The Doctor hasn't always been that way or any other way for that matter. For example, sometimes he'll use a gun and sometimes not. Sometimes he has a disdain for the military and sometimes he works for them.

The Fourth Doctor's actions are often misunderstood in Genesis. At first he doesn't make the decision, but there's not the clarity that it is the correct decision as there is in Timeless Children. He realizes that some good has come out of the Dalek's existence. It's an ambiguous choice and he questions whether he has the right to make it.

Then, he's interrupted. Later he comes back and does push the button. It's a tough decision, more ambiguous, but ultimately he goes through with it--although he finds that it'll only delay the Daleks.

 

Delay Of The Daleks,
Union Action of the Daleks,
Leaves on the Line of the Daleks,
Unexpected Item in the Bagging Area of the Daleks.

So many missed opportunities...

 

Brexit Of The Daleks

 

No Country For Old Daleks

 

That opens up a whole new rich vein...

When Harry Met The Daleks,
My Cousin The Dalek,
In the Mood for The Daleks...

 

Not enough Dalek comedy IMO. "To be fair, they left out all the jokes!"

 

I think Dalek Comedy was done as a concept after their ill advised appearance with Spike Milligan tbh.

 

It was done in Curse Of Fatal Death..."WE WILL EXPLAIN LA-TER!"

 

Thing is, that thing was like a road map.
I remember having argument when it came to VHS lol.

 

aka Genesis of the Daleks

 

I don't need to go into all the details, but I am behind on Who a few eras, and trying to catch up, but I have seen a few of the very newest episodes, and I know a *bit* about the row over "The Timeless Child", even though I haven't yet had a chance to see it you.

And so I have had a hard time following the details, and most of the written complaints online and youtube videos critical of it seem to be pretty blatantly sexist and racist so I haven't been able to watch them all the way though (anytime your criticism devolves into using phrases like "social justice warrior, "woke", "feminist", etc...you're not worth listening to, imho)....

I have no problem with a female Doctor,and it's been known and suspected and even outright *stated* that there are big mysteries and secrets in the Doctor's past, and surrounding his identity. Secrets that could destroy worlds.

But I have come across a criticism that I do agree with, if what I have heard is true:



Basically it revolves around the same criticism of the Rey story-arc resolution in Star Wars. The idea that no, you aren't just a normal person that had it in you to rise to greatness (thus WE ALL, including me and you, have that power too)...no, it's not that you CHOSE to be who you are.

No...like Paul in Dune and Garfield's (otherwise really good) Spiderman...you were basically destined for this all along. You are magic and special. It was fate. Yada yada.

That whole "Chosen One" thing was cool when I was a child. I was odd and different and bullied for it. I didn't fit in, and my dad was emotionally abusive. So, like so like a lot of kids like me, I secretly fantasized that I was secretly a Prince or alien and some day my real people would come for me. (This "Chosen One" trope must fundamentally appeal to most children, since it has always been very popular in children's stories, and even is today...just look at Harry Potter. Despite how much I like the series, it's kinda a letdown because he wasn't special because he was "a great wizard"...because he had talent and chose to overcome his tragedy and become someone special. In fact, he's really kinda a crap wizard, Hermionie (or someone else) always has to save him with THEIR knowledge and talent. No, he's just destined to be the special one from birth. Nothing he did, no choice he made, made him the person he was. He would have been The Chosen One no matter what. He didn't chose his destiny, it was chosen for him.)

But as an adult, a flawed adult who has made so, so many mistakes...I prefer the idea that even a non-special wretch like me could choose to be something greater.

And I agree with the criticism in this particular youtube video. (Unfortunately the one that came up right after immediately started with some fanboy bitching about how the new Who was ruined forever because of "feminist...woke...social justice"....*sigh*.

 

It gets more interesting:



A couple of the earlier reasons are somewhat debunkable... #3 onward gets far more interesting...