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Spoilers The Timeless Children grade and discussion thread

How do you rate The Timeless Children?

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    91
cultcross said:
The difference between pushing the button and handing the button to someone you know will then press it is a pretty thin hair she's splitting there.
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Agreed. I was not a fan of that scene. She knows what the right decision is for the good of the many. And, she couldn't do it. That's a fail for her character. Makes her look weak in my book because she's not able to make the hard decisions.
 
USS Fardell said:
The Timeless Children
The last episode of Series 12. Does everything change? Does nothing change? Who's the Doctor, really? Were there Cybermen on Gallifrey? Was the Master telling the truth? Where did the Timeless Child come from? What did Brendan have to do with anything? Some of these questions were answered. The Master pulls the Doctor through to Gallifrey, leaving the survivors, the 'fam' and Ko Sharmus to fend for themselves. In the Citadel, the Master hooks the Doctor up to the Matrix...
The Master uses the Matrix to tell the Doctor what he found out about the Timeless Child and the origin of the Time Lords. Or, what his view of it is. An ancient Gallifreyian Shabogan explorer, Tecteun discovers a child alone, next to a monument and a rift to another dimension. (Which she doesn't investigate when the child refuses to say where she came from?) It certainly increases the mystery. The two send more time exploring before returning to Gallifrey. And then it's revealed that regeneration comes from the child.
(And that Tecteun experimented on the child to splice the ability into the Gallifreyians. Certainly an interesting idea.) Then the big whammy. The Master then says that the Timeless Child is the Doctor! Like, what? Doesn't really make sense. But at the same time, the Master is talking to the Lone Cyberman. Telling him to come through the Barrier to Gallifrey so they can join forces. Ashad reveals his goal. Get rid of all organic life via a death particle in his chest, after turning the Cybermen into robots.
Although the Master says that isn't special. That is a particularly good scene. Yas, Graham and the others escape from the ship by pretending to be Cybermen. It's certainly inspired by earlier instances of companions pretending to be antagonists, but it works, and it was done well. It is also consistent with the development of the characters so far. The scenes in Ko Sharmus' base were also done well, with Ryan's 'slam dunk' destroying a group of Cybermen being a rather good call back. The Master compresses the Lone Cyberman, but the particle isn't activated (yet.)
Yas steps through to Gallifrey first. Consistent with the way her character has been going. I'd like to see more of her. The Master reveals that he's turning dead Time Lords into CyberLords. Interesting idea, and a rather good scene. But not as good as when the Doctor escaped from the Matrix by using her memories. (Ruth, Doctor and Morbius Doctors pre-Hartnell... Still, everything and yet, nothing.) The revelation hasn't really changed the Doctor. But escaping, the Master and his CyberLords was done well.
A House TARDIS in Sheffield, and a Tree TARDIS on the desolate planet. Judoon surprise! A good ending to this interesting episode. More in the Three or Two Part finale review below. 8/10.


Series 12 Finale Overall review
Mainly Ascension of the Cybermen/The Timeless Children with the Lone Cyberman's appearances in The Haunting of Villa Diodati. The Lone Cybermen, was a very effective character as someone who tried to volunteer for conversion but was rejected part way. Self loathing. (That is a link thematically, to the Master being upset at the lies in Gallifrey's history. More on that below.) His goal to use the Cybermen to get rid of all organic life was developed as a lead from this. And this causes the clash with the Master's plans.
But the main plot in these episodes is the Timeless Child and the implications for the Doctor of what the Master had discovered. The Brendan subplot links in rather well as a type, a cover, for the TimelessDoctor's missions for the Division. From the child found on the road, until the memory wipe. The parallel between Tecteum's discovery of the Timeless Child and the father discovering Brendan is obvious. The Garda makes a good stand in for the Division. Of course, there was more to what was happening on Gallifrey than that.
The Doctor is on a mission to atone for her decision to give the Cyberium to the Lone Cyberman. That is what drives her as she fights the Lone Cyberman, and the Master. And it also links to Ko Sharmus setting off the death particle instead of her. He feels that he's more responsible for what's occuring with the Master and the CyberLords than the Doctor. His anguish as he ruefully considers that the Cyberium hadn't been sent back far enough was well done. It's he who sets off the particle and allows the Doctor to escape.
It is obvious that he stays at the Boundary because he feels that he doesn't deserve to interact with others, damaged by the war... On to the 'fam'. Each one of them gets something to do, even if it is hinted that Graham and Ryan may want to stop travelling, it's Yas who is the saddest upon disembarking from the House TARDIS. She wanted to continue travelling with the Doctor, and thinks she is dead. (So, will we see Yas moving into the House TARDIS, being rueful, wondering if the Doctor survived after all?)
Graham and Yas both encouraged the survivors through the ordeal on the escape ship, on the Cybercarrier and at the Boundary (and also were able to find the Panopticon in the ruins of the Citadel). As stated before, Yas leading the group through to Gallifrey is consistent with the way haer character had been going. She barely hesitates before stepping into the boundary. She then later argues with the Doctor about what to do. The Doctor tells her that she has to go. The survivors aren't developed much, but their joy at being on Earth was well done.
(Maybe there's future storytelling potential there?) There is not much more to say about the Judoon ending, but overall these two or three episodes was a very good way to end this series. More in the overall Series review. 8.25/10.
Click to expand...
tldr
 
jaime said:
Somewhere around here is a post I made talking about how history repeats and this Doctor was going to be heading into another wilderness years.

This last season was no season 26 though. We are still at season 24 levels.
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It wasn't ratings that killed it back then and it won't be ratings now.
 
I hate to defend the episode, but didn't she make the decision in Day that the Doctor never would do that again? Of course, he also found another way, and had to until three regenreations/lifetimes later for the solution to come to him, but still.

That said, the biggest fail for me in that scene is that the Doctor gladly walks away after a COMPLETE STRANGER to her decides to sacrifice himself. It boggles the mind, really.
 
Mr Awe said:
Agreed. I was not a fan of that scene. She knows what the right decision is for the good of the many. And, she couldn't do it. That's a fail for her character. Makes her look weak in my book because she's not able to make the hard decisions.
Click to expand...

They're called hard decisions for a reason. Could you press the button if it were your world? That the Doctor was confronted with one and made a choice, a choice informed by past experience, as @Emperor-Tiberius noted, is not the problem. The problem is that an alternative arrived so conveniently, with no setup whatsoever. That the Master will inevitably prove to have escaped, likely with his new CyberMasters, is potentially another issue, as it might render the moment rather hollow, depending on the storytelling.

If there's a problem with Chibnall's, it's that it's often perfunctory, with little effort to build things in, to sow seeds. He's not doing enough hard graft, in my opinion, which can leave things feeling a little unsatisfactory. This moment is a clear case in point.
 
CuriousCaitian said:
They're called hard decisions for a reason. Could you press the button if it were your world? That the Doctor was confronted with one and made a choice, a choice informed by past experience, as @Emperor-Tiberius noted, is not the problem. The problem is that an alternative arrived so conveniently, with no setup whatsoever. That the Master will inevitably prove to have escaped, likely with his new CyberMasters, is potentially another issue, as it might render the moment rather hollow, depending on the storytelling.

If there's a problem with Chibnall's, it's that it's often perfunctory, with little effort to build things in, to sow seeds. He's not doing enough hard graft, in my opinion, which can leave things feeling a little unsatisfactory. This moment is a clear case in point.
Click to expand...
It's not whether or not I'd push the button. Although, I hope I would. Rather, what would the character of the Doctor do? Would the Doctor really take the short term easy way out and then let more suffer later? I hope not!

Although, I agree there are other options. Let the Doctor agonize over it. Make the decision. But then when she's about to push the button herself, the guy comes up behind her. Knocks her out and gets her to safety. And then does it himself. Something along those lines. Bit of a cop out but better than doing the wrong thing!
 
Mr Awe said:
Agreed. I was not a fan of that scene. She knows what the right decision is for the good of the many. And, she couldn't do it. That's a fail for her character. Makes her look weak in my book because she's not able to make the hard decisions.
Click to expand...

Uuuuum That's always been how the Doctor was.

He couldn't make the hard decision in Genesis either.

Oh and The Doctor has always found a way to get someone else to do the thing they couldn't do.
 
Trinity Gingerbread said:
Uuuuum That's always been how the Doctor was.

He couldn't make the hard decision in Genesis either.

Oh and The Doctor has always found a way to get someone else to do the thing they couldn't do.
Click to expand...
The Doctor hasn't always been that way or any other way for that matter. For example, sometimes he'll use a gun and sometimes not. Sometimes he has a disdain for the military and sometimes he works for them.

The Fourth Doctor's actions are often misunderstood in Genesis. At first he doesn't make the decision, but there's not the clarity that it is the correct decision as there is in Timeless Children. He realizes that some good has come out of the Dalek's existence. It's an ambiguous choice and he questions whether he has the right to make it.

Then, he's interrupted. Later he comes back and does push the button. It's a tough decision, more ambiguous, but ultimately he goes through with it--although he finds that it'll only delay the Daleks.
 
Mr Awe said:
The Doctor hasn't always been that way or any other way for that matter. For example, sometimes he'll use a gun and sometimes not. Sometimes he has a disdain for the military and sometimes he works for them.

The Fourth Doctor's actions are often misunderstood in Genesis. At first he doesn't make the decision, but there's not the clarity that it is the correct decision as there is in Timeless Children. He realizes that some good has come out of the Dalek's existence. It's an ambiguous choice and he questions whether he has the right to make it.

Then, he's interrupted. Later he comes back and does push the button. It's a tough decision, more ambiguous, but ultimately he goes through with it--although he finds that it'll only delay the Daleks.
Click to expand...

Delay Of The Daleks,
Union Action of the Daleks,
Leaves on the Line of the Daleks,
Unexpected Item in the Bagging Area of the Daleks.

So many missed opportunities...
 
I don't need to go into all the details, but I am behind on Who a few eras, and trying to catch up, but I have seen a few of the very newest episodes, and I know a *bit* about the row over "The Timeless Child", even though I haven't yet had a chance to see it you.

And so I have had a hard time following the details, and most of the written complaints online and youtube videos critical of it seem to be pretty blatantly sexist and racist so I haven't been able to watch them all the way though (anytime your criticism devolves into using phrases like "social justice warrior, "woke", "feminist", etc...you're not worth listening to, imho)....

I have no problem with a female Doctor,and it's been known and suspected and even outright *stated* that there are big mysteries and secrets in the Doctor's past, and surrounding his identity. Secrets that could destroy worlds.

But I have come across a criticism that I do agree with, if what I have heard is true:

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Basically it revolves around the same criticism of the Rey story-arc resolution in Star Wars. The idea that no, you aren't just a normal person that had it in you to rise to greatness (thus WE ALL, including me and you, have that power too)...no, it's not that you CHOSE to be who you are.

No...like Paul in Dune and Garfield's (otherwise really good) Spiderman...you were basically destined for this all along. You are magic and special. It was fate. Yada yada.

That whole "Chosen One" thing was cool when I was a child. I was odd and different and bullied for it. I didn't fit in, and my dad was emotionally abusive. So, like so like a lot of kids like me, I secretly fantasized that I was secretly a Prince or alien and some day my real people would come for me. (This "Chosen One" trope must fundamentally appeal to most children, since it has always been very popular in children's stories, and even is today...just look at Harry Potter. Despite how much I like the series, it's kinda a letdown because he wasn't special because he was "a great wizard"...because he had talent and chose to overcome his tragedy and become someone special. In fact, he's really kinda a crap wizard, Hermionie (or someone else) always has to save him with THEIR knowledge and talent. No, he's just destined to be the special one from birth. Nothing he did, no choice he made, made him the person he was. He would have been The Chosen One no matter what. He didn't chose his destiny, it was chosen for him.)

But as an adult, a flawed adult who has made so, so many mistakes...I prefer the idea that even a non-special wretch like me could choose to be something greater.

And I agree with the criticism in this particular youtube video. (Unfortunately the one that came up right after immediately started with some fanboy bitching about how the new Who was ruined forever because of "feminist...woke...social justice"....*sigh*.
 
Last edited:
bryce said:
I don't need to go into all the details, but I am behind on Who a few eras, and trying to catch up, but I have seen a few of the very newest episodes, and I know a *bit* about the row over "The Timeless Child", even though I haven't yet had a chance to see it you.

And so I have had a hard time following the details, and most of the written complaints online and youtube videos critical of it seem to be pretty blatantly sexist and racist so I haven't been able to watch them all the way though (anytime your criticism devolves into using phrases like "social justice warrior, "woke", "feminist", etc...you're not worth listening to, imho)....

I have no problem with a female Doctor,and it's been known and suspected and even outright *stated* that there are big mysteries and secrets in the Doctor's past, and surrounding his identity. Secrets that could destroy worlds.

But I have come across a criticism that I do agree with, if what I have heard is true:

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Basically it revolves around the same criticism of the Rey story-arc resolution in Star Wars. The idea that no, you aren't just a normal person that had it in you to rise to greatness (thus WE ALL, including me and you, have that power too)...no, it's not that you CHOSE to be who you are.

No...like Paul in Dune and Garfield's (otherwise really good) Spiderman...you were basically destined for this all along. You are magic and special. It was fate. Yada yada.

That whole "Chosen One" thing was cool when I was a child. I was odd and different and bullied for it. I didn't fit in, and my dad was emotionally abusive. So, like so like a lot of kids like me, I secretly fantasized that I was secretly a Prince or alien and some day my real people would come for me. (This "Chosen One" trope must fundamentally appeal to most children, since it has always been very popular in children's stories, and even is today...just look at Harry Potter. Despite how much I like the series, it's kinda a letdown because he wasn't special because he was "a great wizard"...because he had talent and chose to overcome his tragedy and become someone special. In fact, he's really kinda a crap wizard, Hermionie (or someone else) always has to save him with THEIR knowledge and talent. No, he's just destined to be the special one from birth. Nothing he did, no choice he made, made him the person he was. He would have been The Chosen One no matter what. He didn't chose his destiny, it was chosen for him.)

But as an adult, a flawed adult who has made so, so many mistakes...I prefer the idea that even a non-special wretch like me could choose to be something greater.

And I agree with the criticism in this particular youtube video. (Unfortunately the one that came up right after immediately started with some fanboy bitching about how the new Who was ruined forever because of "feminist...woke...social justice"....*sigh*.
Click to expand...


It gets more interesting:

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A couple of the earlier reasons are somewhat debunkable... #3 onward gets far more interesting...
 
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