Lwaxana & Alexander Mudbath?

[USS Triumphant]

youre all forgetting one important part of this story...

this all takes place in the holodeck.

couldnt the computer understand that a minor is in the company and generate its own version of pixilation right in front of any and all areas of concern?

I think "areas of a concern" are a judgment call, too, though, that might be beyond the holodeck's ability to discern. (Then, again, maybe Worf had already assigned parental control settings for Alexander.)

But something else that occurs to me is: What extent do the safeties in the holodeck go to? We've never seen it, but perhaps it monitors vitals and would beam someone having a heart attack to sickbay or at least summon medical personnel. Maybe it would be able to determine if someone was in the kind of distress that indicates that they are being made sexually anxious. Maybe it would automatically beam someone who was doing inappropriate things to a child or trying to rape someone to the brig, sans genitals. So maybe there are other reasons aside from just changes in cultural mores that this isn't a big deal.

 

[Amaris]

In our culture (and by "our" I mean the U.S.), nudity is equated with sexuality. To be naked is to automatically engage in sexual provocation. It's more than a bit silly.

 

[2takesfrakes]

Auntie and I are going to have a conversation.

Why? What exactly is the problem?

I understand where you're coming from, believe me ... I do. I'm an artist, I understand the beauty of the Human form and am dismayed by those who would insist upon putting fig leaves on statues. But as a parent (which I am not, by the way), there are certain doors you don't open up to a young child and hanging around naked adults ranks pretty high up there. You just use Common Sense. I'm not offended by this episode, I understand that it was made in a certain era, and what the whole mudbath thing was getting at. I know and understand all of this. I'm just clarifying on where the creepiness of the episode comes into play and why. Because of the times we live in now and the standards of parenting that come with it.

 

[Tora Ziyal]

This episode was made with the best of intentions. And some things that are in-universe, unfortunately, cannot stand up to Reality's Test of Time. Whether that be Special Effects, or slang usage, or hairstyles, whatever it is ... certain things just do not hold up well. And this episode may be a case in point. In the Real World, if my little kid came home and I said, "hey kiddo, what did you do today?" and he answered, "me and Auntie L'Waxana were naked in a mudbath ..." I don't really give a shit how innocent it was, or how public the setting was, Auntie and I are going to have a conversation.

But this episode isn't the real world. It isn't the early 21st century, and it isn't Philadelphia. It's not even the real world in-universe -- as blueziggy pointed out, the mud bath scene takes place on the holodeck. Context is important! If you and your hypothetical kiddo lived in the 24th century and had been exposed to the cultures of other planets, you might (or might not) well think it was fine for him to sit in the mud bath with auntie.

But something else that occurs to me is: What extent do the safeties in the holodeck go to? We've never seen it, but perhaps it monitors vitals and would beam someone having a heart attack to sickbay or at least summon medical personnel. Maybe it would be able to determine if someone was in the kind of distress that indicates that they are being made sexually anxious. Maybe it would automatically beam someone who was doing inappropriate things to a child or trying to rape someone to the brig, sans genitals. So maybe there are other reasons aside from just changes in cultural mores that this isn't a big deal.

Unlikely. Too many episodes where the holodeck safety controls fail. Fistful of Datas, The Big Goodbye, I forget what else...

 

[Guy Gardener]

If Lwaxana and Picard had gotten married, would Dee have called him "Captain Daddy"?

 

[Mr. Adventure]

I have a feeling that a lot of countries must just shake their heads at us crazy Americans.

 

[Timo]

Dunno, I'm sort of envious. If the first woman a young man ever sees nude is his first date during the third base or home run stage, it's gotta have quite a kick!

I missed out on that, and not due to porn magazines (yes, I'm a pre-internet relic). Nudity within the family at bathtime or during changing of clothes, say, at bedtime, means you know exactly how your mom and sis look. And probably also your aunts, cousins and friends of opposite sex from daycare or hobbies. Nudity in a public bath, with the kids (regardless of gender) going with the mother on the women's turn used to be fairly typical, too (although people getting private saunas even in apartment buildings is ruining that!). And then there's the effect of the winter vs. summer contrast: when it's possible to shed the clothes, it's also sort of mandatory, at least in semi-privacy.

It doesn't take all the sexuality out of the nudity, of course - unisex nude sauna is still titillating for teenagers (although perhaps not beyond generic unisex activities, say, a sweaty game of baseball). But it does alter certain rules of the game when nudity alone doesn't qualify as a turn-on.

Which of our TNG heroes have an explicit problem with public nudity? Worf himself apparently does, as per ST:NEM, but we are never told if it's a Klingon thing, a Rodzhenko thing, or just a Worf thing. The way the others joke about that suggests many of them are uneasy with the concept, although Picard seems to have grown out of it at least, or possibly hasn't grown up with it to start with. Beyond that, it's a bit hazy, because nudity chiefly comes up in connection with Lwaxana, and that means everybody has problems aplenty already!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[2takesfrakes]

... and it isn't Philadelphia.

How dare you use My Hometown Pride™ against me -- and all just to make a point on a Message Board???

>>SNORT!!!<<

The Traveller's active interest in Wesley, on the other hand, was very disturbing ... and most decidedly unhealthy.

 

[Captain Rob]

Worf's issues with nudity may be because Klingons connect it with bathing and washing. And we all know how the Klingons feel about that.

 

[Makarov]

They should have an episode where the holodeck malfunctions and makes everyone on the ship naked.

Is the mud bath creepy, well not in the show. But I don't think it is puritan to suggest that it would be inappropriate in reality.

I wonder how Jellico would feel about it considering he told Deanna to stop wearing the boob uniform.

 

[sonak]

not creepy at all. You're Imposing a very culturally-specific(and unhealthy IMHO) taboo about nudity into a situation where it didn't apply. I think it says more about those who see "creepiness" in innocent scenarios than it does about the writers.

 

[2takesfrakes]

Worf's issues with nudity may be because Klingons connect it with bathing and washing. And we all know how the Klingons feel about that.

When Adam & Even realized they were naked, the first thing they did was to gather Fig Leaves ... and use them to hide their shame. I suspect that is more closely connected, actually, to Worf's - and by extension, Klingon - issues with nudity.

 

[USS Triumphant]

I wonder how Jellico would feel about it considering he told Deanna to stop wearing the boob uniform.

I don't think him doing so had anything to do with her breastesses, I think he just wanted everyone in the crew in the standard uniform. I doubt he would have cared what two civilians were doing on their own time provided there was no crime committed aboard his ship.

 

[Armored Saint]

Worf's issues with nudity may be because Klingons connect it with bathing and washing. And we all know how the Klingons feel about that.

When Adam & Even realized they were naked, the first thing they did was to gather Fig Leaves ... and use them to hide their shame. I suspect that is more closely connected, actually, to Worf's - and by extension, Klingon - issues with nudity.

Kruge wasn't interested by this Genesis.

 

[sonak]

Worf's issues with nudity may be because Klingons connect it with bathing and washing. And we all know how the Klingons feel about that.

When Adam & Even realized they were naked, the first thing they did was to gather Fig Leaves ... and use them to hide their shame. I suspect that is more closely connected, actually, to Worf's - and by extension, Klingon - issues with nudity.

What does this mean? Worf has been shown to follow Klingon religion and tradition, why would the story from an Earth religion influence his feelings on it?


Sparta had a warrior culture and no taboo around nudity, although Worf does seem to have discomfort with it judging by his remarks in Nemesis, though that could be personal rather than cultural.

 

[Trekker4747]

I think Adam and Eve and their fig leaves has more to do with *us* and the presentation of the legend than it has anything to do with them. IIRC, one of the penances of eating the forbidden fruit was the concept of modesty.

As for Worf, I doubt his issues with nudity had anything to do with bathing because really I don't see how one has to do with the other other than bathing requires one to be nude. So does changing your clothes, does this mean Worf had issues with changing his clothes?

Worf likely was just modest and had issues with nudity either due to upbringing or just personal choice. I dunno, maybe he stabbed a kid with his barbed penis during a soccer match or something and since then doesn't like to take the chance by being nude again?

 

[Armored Saint]

Worf is Worf, he has his own strict moral code.

 

[Lance]

Yeah, we're talking about a Betazoid and a Klingon here. If it were two humans we'd be in a different ballpark, but like the different cultural norms across even Earth today, I would imagine that different cultural backgrounds would definitely be in play in the case cited in the OP. We can't judge them by human (or, rather, westernised) societal standards.

 

[JD5000]

Worf grew up in Earth society, he obviously had exposure to human tropes.

 

[Timo]

...Supposedly chiefly Byelorussian ones, though. Oh, we don't know how cosmopolitan the Rodzhenkos were, but "Family" tried to play the traditionalist oldtimers card to comic effect. I don't personally know people from that exact spot of the globe, but the general western Russian culture would supposedly look very kindly towards communal bathing and the strutting of one's stuff in mixed gatherings. (Although perhaps no longer in the 24th century?)

Timo Saloniemi