Lwaxana & Alexander Mudbath?
- Thread starter Mojochi
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Not in the context we see in the episode, no. Considering, too, the openness that is Betazoid culture, nudity and being nude in the same room as others isn't seen as taboo. The crew knows Lwaxana is harmless, if a tad annoying, and so I doubt anyone would bat an eye. Worf didn't seem to care about any of that, only that Alexander didn't finish his chores before traipsing off without permission.
The only thing that ever struck me as odd about it was that it would be something that Alexander would want to do.
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Amaris
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Keep in mind that we're supposed to be looking several hundred years into the future. Undoubtedly, social norms will have changed somewhat, perhaps even drastically. If you're insinuating the prospect of pedophilia, it's completely possible that such disorders are corrected by (what will be) modern medicine, and so few worry about the chance of it happening. Especially on a ship of 1,000 people, where everyone gets to know everyone else.
In the case of Riker, and Molly, it all depends upon the circumstances. Did either of the O'Briens say she could go to the mud baths with Riker as long as she got her chores done? Is Riker well known for being carefree and spirited? Does Riker eschew "traditional" customs ala Lwaxana? It all comes down to circumstance and perception.
Like I said, when it was Alexander and Lwaxana, neither Worf nor Deanna cared that Alexander was surrounded by naked people, one being the mother of his father's friend, they were upset because Alexander shirked his chores to skip away and play. Remember, too, that later on toward the end of the episode, they're all there together, so I doubt it was a factor at all.
I would say the other factor, in the Riker and Molly scenario, is how well the people know each other. While I'm sure Riker and Miles are friends, I'm not sure they're so close as to allow such a situation. On the other hand, Worf and Deanna seem quite close, and so are more comfortable with the idea.
Still, the scenario does not come off as creepy to me. It comes off as being more silly, than anything.
Had L'Waxana & Alexander's genders been reversed, then the creepiness would've skyrocketted. So much, in fact, that I suspect Rick or someone would've turned to whomever was coming up with this and asked: "Who are you writing this for?". The connotations ... the implications ... all of that would be radically altered were the sexes different. But, as it stands, you know what? It still has the taint of creepiness, actually. A little boy, whether he be Human, or Klingon, has no business in a Mudbath, anyway. For what purpose? If you want Junior to have a mudbath, have him play Soccer on a wet field!
Please note that it's a public mudbath. It would be odd to the extreme for any culture practicing unisex public bathing today (mine, say) to then slap some sort of a gender or age sub-taboo on it...
Old ladies intimidating young boys is a phenomenon unrelated to bathing. Nothing of the sort seems to be taking place here!
Timo Saloniemi
Old ladies intimidating young boys is a phenomenon unrelated to bathing. Nothing of the sort seems to be taking place here!
Timo Saloniemi
Is there something inherently sexual about a mud bath I'm missing? Is it even necessary to be nude while in one? What's the difference between Alexander being in a mud bath with a grandmotherly friend as opposed to a pool or even a jacuzzi?
When I read this topic, I immediately tought about sauna. In North America, it's usually not unisex, except for naturist organizations. People hardly makes a distinction between sexuality and nudity.
In this case, the setting isn't particularly awkward, it's like a grandma who help her four year old grandson to put his swimsuit.
It's neither like people were able to see or do something in all this mud.
I assume Lwaxana is nude. Not nude would be plain out of character for her. I imagine the boy would probably follow suit, (or lack there of) & it would be equally as odd to me nude in a hot tub, maybe more so. I get that were discussing a futuristic era and alien sensibilities, but I'm not asking if they would find it creepy. Clearly they don't. I'm asking if we should. Frankly, a lot about that episode rubs me oddly, that being no small part why
I think it is a lingering tinge of puritanism - not that there's anything wrong with that. You are a product of your environment. I never thought of a 'sexual context' of the scene until it was raised in this thread. And only then, it was to quickly discard it.
I dunno, what if it was the pool? What if Lwaxana took Alexander to the pool with her? They're both equally unclothed, they're both immersed in the same collection of liquid. What's really the difference?
Things like these are only eyebrow-raising in today's culture because of how prevalent child sex crimes have been in the news for the last few decades, in any other time in history nobody would think it's odd for a trusted babysitter to go to a mud bath with a child. It just wasn't on people's radar.
Things like these are only eyebrow-raising in today's culture because of how prevalent child sex crimes have been in the news for the last few decades, in any other time in history nobody would think it's odd for a trusted babysitter to go to a mud bath with a child. It just wasn't on people's radar.
My very first reaction, years ago, was that it was a bit creepy. But I quickly concluded that it was like being in a jacuzzi with opaque water in a very public setting that gave off relaxation vibes, not sexual ones. So, no, it doesn't seem creepy to me.
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Agreed. It never even occurred to me.
You just took the words right off my touch screen. I was going to say just about the same thing.
It's also funny you use the term 'Puritan'. The Puritans wouldn't even consider that there was any sexual connotation between an older lady and a young boy, they'd be more angry that the two decided to take a mud bath for strictly relaxation purposes, and that a woman would take her clothes off outside the home at all.
Only a person from the early 21st century would read pedophilia into it.
Only a person from the early 21st century would read pedophilia into it.
This episode was made with the best of intentions. And some things that are in-universe, unfortunately, cannot stand up to Reality's Test of Time. Whether that be Special Effects, or slang usage, or hairstyles, whatever it is ... certain things just do not hold up well. And this episode may be a case in point. In the Real World, if my little kid came home and I said, "hey kiddo, what did you do today?" and he answered, "me and Auntie L'Waxana were naked in a mudbath ..." I don't really give a shit how innocent it was, or how public the setting was, Auntie and I are going to have a conversation.
Why? What exactly is the problem? (Other than you not giving consent to do this/knowing about it.)
Why the puritanical attitude against *gasp* nudity. Maybe it's possible a prepubescent child doesn't look at a naked menopausal woman the same way an adult does and to him it was perfectly innocent and normal, like taking a bath. And unless the adult has been hiding very serious and life-effecting desires their entire life without anyone knowing about it i' certain that to HER it was perfectly normal and innocent.
Christ, there's nothing wrong with nudity people. Inappropriate touching? Sure. Get worried and call the cops.
But I'm sure a 60-something year old woman has seen a naked child before. And while a naked child likely hasn't seen a naked older woman before it's not much of a deal to them as it is to us.
You know, it's funny that this episode also contains Lwaxanna's wedding. Lwaxanna being the care-free spirit that we'll take as an example of what people are like in 24c (setting aside that she's an alien) when it comes to things like nudity. She doesn't care. In the wedding NO ONE cared! No one left in disgust, no one rushed to rushed to cover Alexander's eyes at the sight of a naked woman, no covered their own eyes every one smiled and respected the choice she had made, to have a "traditional" wedding for her culture and didn't see her nudity as anything else than that.
Most of you? Are kind of acting like the advisor to the groom. Getting all indignant and disgusted, rushing to cover the eyes of someone and hurrying out of the room.
I sort of doubt it was intentional, but it seems this is a nice display of the contrast between the culture of the future (something we should try to be) and the culture we are now (the groom and his advisor) being disgusted at sight of *gasp* a naked woman.
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