Captain America: The Winter Soldier Discussion Thread - SPOILERS

[The Old Mixer]

Way to spoil the biggest twist in the film in your first paragraph, USA Today! If this is any indication, AoS will probably massively spoil the film for those who haven't seen it.

 

[bbjeg]

Deatails on the show being "retooled" for the final six episodes. But if this was the plan all along, how is really being re-tooled?

http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/...s-of-shield-tv-series/7313369/?linkId=7899022

I thought that link was speculation but it should of had a spoiler warning.

Spoiler: future of Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

The website says a member of the team will betray them, then they show a picture of the team with Ward missing and Antoine Triplett in his place. I had a feeling Triplett would replace Ward (along with a feeling that Triplett was disguised as Ward, but eh).

 

[The Old Mixer]

Well, it was a USA Today link. That's going to be publicity, not fan speculation.

 

[bbjeg]

^I thought it was publicity for CA:TWS and speculation about what may happen in AoS. AoS's website doesn't even reveal that much.

 

[Sci]

It's clearly governed by an international council, though. So, either way, the United States doesn't control SHIELD.

I honestly think that's debatable. The one time we see the World Security Council issue an operational order, SHIELD completely defies their order -- with no negative consequences. Add to this the fact that Fury says that it was Secretary Pierce who appointed him SHIELD Director, and the fact that the Members of Congress at the end refer to Natasha's service with SHIELD as service to the United States (not the U.S. and its allies), and I think there's also a strong argument to be made that it's U.S.-controlled.

So the question is -- does the World Security Council have real power over SHIELD, or is it there to give a facade of international cooperation to a U.S. agency? What happens if the World Security Council issues an order to SHIELD that countermands an order from the United States President?

There's evidence for both sides yet. We'll see.

However, Natasha's reference to working for the KGB is anachronistic; the KGB was dissolved in late 1991, when Natasha would have been about seven years old. Either the KGB (and possibly the Soviet Union itself?) still exists in the Marvel Cinematic Universe of 2014, or Natasha actually worked for the FSB, the KGB's post-Soviet successor. (Which, admittedly, the FSB is made up largely of the same people operating

In The Avengers she enlists the help of a young girl, probably no older than 5 or so, to lure Banner to the meeting location. Banner quips/asks if they really "started them that young" (or words to that effect), BW: "I did."

So it's "possible" she worked for the KGB at a very young age for whatever reasons.

I mean, yeah, but is anyone really gonna take the actions of a seven-year-old child as some sort of deep, dark secret she has to redeem herself for, the way the Members of Congress implied in that committee hearing at the end?

But it also seems likely the Soviet Union lasted a little longer in the MCU than it did our as also in Avengers BW says, grimmly, "Regimes rise and fall everyday. I'm Russian, I'm used to that."

Also possible!

The plan seemed a bit nuts to me though. I could see picking off people here and there but blitzing everyone at once seems like the turmoil would have been off the charts.

Well, yeah -- that was the point. It was a coup -- a global coup. One of their targets was the U.S. President himself. They wanted to cripple the world's governments, militaries, and superheroes, and take over in the resultant chaos.

The KGB stopped a lot of it's official operation in 1991, but it took a while to dismantle. And could well have been continuing to carry out whatever it liked behind closed doors, training a new generation of assassins would not be out of the question.

I mean, in real life, the FSB is basically the KGB with a new name and logo. So it's possible the KGB continued under the old name in the MCU, I suppose.

 

[The Old Mixer]

I get the impression that Pierce was running things on the ground but was supposed to be accountable to the council...sort of like the CEO and the board of directors.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

For example, delaying Project Insight required a full vote. They clearly gave him orders. He wouldn't have had to electrocute them if they didn't have authority over him (that event was clearly portrayed as a coup).

I know our current world doesn't have an organization that the US has to surrender so much control to. However, quite a few other countries do. NATO is the most analogous. It's US dominated, so we don't think of it much, but I'm sure other countries do think about it more. We're talking about a universe where two things are different. One, there are threats beyond normal capacity that border on the strange and paranormal. Second, SHIELD has existed for fifty years. It's easier to imagine such a long-established affiliated group that the US doesn't control but does contribute to. It's important to everyone involved.

 

[Tain]

 

[Mr. Adventure]

The plan seemed a bit nuts to me though. I could see picking off people here and there but blitzing everyone at once seems like the turmoil would have been off the charts.

Well, yeah -- that was the point. It was a coup -- a global coup. One of their targets was the U.S. President himself. They wanted to cripple the world's governments, militaries, and superheroes, and take over in the resultant chaos.

It just seems to me like that degree of immediate Chaos would be difficult to capitalize on. Wouldn't it be more effective to infiltrate and subvert existing organizations and power structures rather than rain hell?

 

[The Old Mixer]

I guess Project Insight was their Death Star...they were doing away with the pretense of democracy and planning to rule through fear.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Yeah, I think the whole thing about getting people to willingly give up their freedoms was done to get them to approve and finance the project. Only HYDRA knew the targets themselves, though. Once the President was killed, though, I'm sure people would have a problem with it (but, by then, it would be too late).

 

[The Old Mixer]

Don't blame me, I voted for Ellis.

BTW...in the MCU, I imagine that the thoroughly-erased 18 minutes on Nixon's tapes had something to do with a fella named Zola....

 

[CorporalCaptain]

The plan seemed a bit nuts to me though. I could see picking off people here and there but blitzing everyone at once seems like the turmoil would have been off the charts.

Well, yeah -- that was the point. It was a coup -- a global coup. One of their targets was the U.S. President himself. They wanted to cripple the world's governments, militaries, and superheroes, and take over in the resultant chaos.

It just seems to me like that degree of immediate Chaos would be difficult to capitalize on. Wouldn't it be more effective to infiltrate and subvert existing organizations and power structures rather than rain hell?

I think we can assume that Zola believed his algorithm would eliminate all people capable of independent thought and the ability to contribute to the leadership of any resistance. Whether the elimination of 20,000,000 select targets would be enough to pacify the world's population in real life is certainly debatable.

Anyway, the ships looked tactically superior to anything in real life short of a nuke. With their satellite surveillance system, intelligence didn't seem to be a problem. I think we're supposed to assume that they could spot and quell any resistance potentially capable of direct assault or of interfering with their supply chain. Under conditions such as those, how would they not be invulnerable to everything terrestrial?

I didn't read it so much as capitalizing on chaos, but rather as a fait accompli.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Step 1089: 3 shield Hellicarriers murder the worst 20 million Americans.

Step 1090: Hydra takes responsibility.

Step 1091: S.H.I.E.L.D. (Who is also Hydra.) defeats the Hydra Forces in the Carriers, and then uncovers a paper trail identifying the half of the government that isn't Hydra as Hydra, and begins rounding them up.

Step 1092: Pierce makes a speech. Hydra is still everywhere. We will never be safe unless I take control of the US Government and save you from the terrorists who want to destroy you.

Step 1093: FEMA and other organizations streamline and categorize the survivors into an efficient workforce, rebuilding the country, making it strong, redefining freedom, opening the borders and allowing countries across the globe to sign up and become American and slaves to Hydra.

...

CorporalCaptain, Nick Fury in the beginning said that the gun platforms on the Hellicarriers could lock onto specific DNA.

Rogers felt that was wrong.

But he thought that it was bad that you could target someone with complete certainty from orbit, when really what a DNA scope is used for by someone after world peace is to whack entire families.

Sure you could've hit Bin Ladin with one bullet from 30 thousand feet and saved the world 10 year ago, but with those guns, you could have also exterminated his entire line, all his children, siblings, cousins, parents, grand parents, aunts and uncles...

All gone.

 

[Mr Light]

Step 1094: steal underpants
Step 1095: ...
Step 1096: PROFIT!!!

Wikipedia said that Piece was under the control of the Zola AI. I didn't get that at all. Pierce was simply a corrupt ideologue who wanted to take control of the country/world in order to protect it. He was acting of his own free will.

Speaking of the Zola AI.... Avengers 2 prediction. Stark is using JARVIS to study the remains of the Zola AI. The Zola AI infects and takes over JARVIS, creating Ultron. If Ultron is a perversion of Stark AI and Hydra AI, it makes the appearance of Baron Von Strucker in the movie make a little more sense.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Yeah, my take is that Pierce thinks he's being altruistic and it's for the greater good, that he is truly acting to protect the security of the world from threats. But he's making these decisions of his own free will. In fact, that seems to be HYDRA's mission as a whole now, which is transnational and multigenerational. Therefore, individuals are not benefiting at all from this but are sacrificing themselves for a greater mission (one that doesn't even involve individual national supremacy).

 

[Sci]

From Mother Jones: "Captain America: The Winter Soldier" Is About Obama's Terror-Suspect Kill List, Say the Film's Directors

ETA:

As far as what's motivating Pierce... seems to me you have to ask yourself what motivates any would-be fascist.

 

[Guy Gardener]

That sounds like Onslaught a little.

Xavier + Magneto = Onslaught.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

CorporalCaptain, Nick Fury in the beginning said that the gun platforms on the Hellicarriers could lock onto specific DNA.

Rogers felt that was wrong.

But he thought that it was bad that you could target someone with complete certainty from orbit, when really what a DNA scope is used for by someone after world peace is to whack entire families.

Sure you could've hit Bin Ladin with one bullet from 30 thousand feet and saved the world 10 year ago, but with those guns, you could have also exterminated his entire line, all his children, siblings, cousins, parents, grand parents, aunts and uncles...

All gone.

What Rogers thought was especially wrong was assassinating people who hadn't actually done anything wrong, but who simply constituted "threats" to security.

 

[Guy Gardener]

That too.

But then, really, isn't that all the CIA ever does with their time?