Captain America: The Winter Soldier Discussion Thread - SPOILERS

[Alidar Jarok]

However, Natasha's reference to working for the KGB is anachronistic; the KGB was dissolved in late 1991, when Natasha would have been about seven years old. Either the KGB (and possibly the Soviet Union itself?) still exists in the Marvel Cinematic Universe of 2014, or Natasha actually worked for the FSB, the KGB's post-Soviet successor. (Which, admittedly, the FSB is made up largely of the same people operating in the same buildings, doing lots of the same things -- they might as well be the same organization, name and government notwithstanding.)

I wonder if Romanoff isn't as young as people think she is. Hard to say for sure, but it seems weird to have Black Widow completely removed from the Cold War.

Roosevelt Island seems about right. At first, I assumed it was somewhere in Virginia, maybe around Rosslyn or Arlington. But then I realized that it can't be Arlington -- the shots of the Lincoln Memorial and Reflecting Pool from the Triskelion's POV place them slightly southward. So between that and the fact that we don't actually see Roosevelt Island anywhere in the establishing shots, Roosevelt Island does seem to be the home of the Triskelion.

Yeah, after looking carefully at that shot, it clearly is Roosevelt Island. It means that it is in DC, I thought it would have to have been in Arlington. Interestingly (or randomly), that means it's the first building in DC to exceed the height restrictions imposed elsewhere. It also means that Rt. 50 goes straight through Triskelion - that's got to be a traffic nightmare

Next question:

This has been bugging me since The Avengers: Who, exactly, does SHIELD work for? They seem to be a U.S. organization, between being staffed by Americans and the use of the word "homeland" in their name. Yet we see them answering to this "World Security Council" in both The Avengers and The Winter Soldier. Alexander Pierce is addressed as "Mister Secretary" and seems to be in charge of them, too; is he the United States Secretary of Defense?

SHIELD appears to be an international agency. It seems more akin to NATO in that it's western-based and was founded by an American man and a British woman, but it seems broader and works closely with many nations. The fact that it is governed by the World Security Council, which includes representatives from India, show it isn't exclusively American. In Avengers, the US military was actually going to help the movie with production until they found out about the Council and decided that they didn't want to support an organization that suborns American interests to an international body, even in a fictional universe.

In Agents of SHIELD, I think it's clearer. They have bases all over the world. They've got at least two non-Americans on the team. They asserted jurisdiction in Italy and South America. At the same time, not every country is a member. It seems Russia is not, based on the fact that the team had to sneak into South Ossetia from Georgia. Also, Malta certainly is not. I suspect there are little countries all over the world who piggyback off of both the security SHIELD provides and the ability to not be a member and charge a premium to shelter rich people. Finally, I get the impression from this movie that Pakistan is not, although that was more ambiguous.

ETA: Here is the quote from Seeds (courtesy spoiler tags for those who don't want to be spoiled on an episode that aired three months ago):

Spoiler: Agents of SHIELD

Quinn asks, “Who is this?”
Coulson says, “Agent Phil Coulson with S.H.I.E.L.D. We’ve never actually met, but I’m familiar with your work. All of it.”
Quinn says, “So this is a getting to know you call?”
Coulson says, “No, just a message,that the first time your aircraft drifts over any country allied with S.H.I.E.L.D., we will shoot you out of the sky.”
Quinn says, “So this is a courtesy call. Well, thank you, Agent Coulson. And I have a message for you. The clairvoyant told me to say hello.”

 

[Roshi]

Did Hayley Atwell also portray old Peggy?

 

[Alidar Jarok]

yes

 

[Sci]

However, Natasha's reference to working for the KGB is anachronistic; the KGB was dissolved in late 1991, when Natasha would have been about seven years old. Either the KGB (and possibly the Soviet Union itself?) still exists in the Marvel Cinematic Universe of 2014, or Natasha actually worked for the FSB, the KGB's post-Soviet successor. (Which, admittedly, the FSB is made up largely of the same people operating in the same buildings, doing lots of the same things -- they might as well be the same organization, name and government notwithstanding.)

I wonder if Romanoff isn't as young as people think she is. Hard to say for sure, but it seems weird to have Black Widow completely removed from the Cold War.

Three possibilities:

1. Natasha is significantly older than she looks.

2. In the MCU, the Soviet Union never fell.

3. In the MCU, the Soviet Union fell, but the Russian Federation soon became just as antagonistic as they had been and the U.S. and Russia fell into another cold war-type relationship. (Maybe Vladimir Putin took power soon after the USSR fell?)

Next question:

This has been bugging me since The Avengers: Who, exactly, does SHIELD work for? They seem to be a U.S. organization, between being staffed by Americans and the use of the word "homeland" in their name. Yet we see them answering to this "World Security Council" in both The Avengers and The Winter Soldier. Alexander Pierce is addressed as "Mister Secretary" and seems to be in charge of them, too; is he the United States Secretary of Defense?

SHIELD appears to be an international agency. It seems more akin to NATO in that it's western-based and was founded by an American man and a British woman, but it seems broader and works closely with many nations. The fact that it is governed by the World Security Council, which includes representatives from India, show it isn't exclusively American. In Avengers, the US military was actually going to help the movie with production until they found out about the Council and decided that they didn't want to support an organization that suborns American interests to an international body, even in a fictional universe.

In Agents of SHIELD, I think it's clearer. They have bases all over the world. They've got at least two non-Americans on the team. They asserted jurisdiction in Italy and South America. At the same time, not every country is a member. It seems Russia is not, based on the fact that the team had to sneak into South Ossetia from Georgia. Also, Malta certainly is not. I suspect there are little countries all over the world who piggyback off of both the security SHIELD provides and the ability to not be a member and charge a premium to shelter rich people. Finally, I get the impression from this movie that Pakistan is not, although that was more ambiguous.

ETA: Here is the quote from Seeds (courtesy spoiler tags for those who don't want to be spoiled on an episode that aired three months ago):

Spoiler: Agents of SHIELD

Quinn asks, “Who is this?”
Coulson says, “Agent Phil Coulson with S.H.I.E.L.D. We’ve never actually met, but I’m familiar with your work. All of it.”
Quinn says, “So this is a getting to know you call?”
Coulson says, “No, just a message,that the first time your aircraft drifts over any country allied with S.H.I.E.L.D., we will shoot you out of the sky.”
Quinn says, “So this is a courtesy call. Well, thank you, Agent Coulson. And I have a message for you. The clairvoyant told me to say hello.”

I considered that possibility, but I find myself skeptical that SHIELD is a truly international agency for three reasons:

1. I just don't buy the idea that the U.S. government would willingly give that much power to an agency they don't control.

2. The use of the term "Homeland" in their full name strongly implies that it is a single-state agency -- and that it's American, since we've become fond of that term post-9/11 (after we realized "Fatherland" was already taken).

3. In the closing scenes of CA:TWS, Natasha is giving testimony to what is clearly a United States Congressional committee, and the Members of Congress question her about how "this country" can defend itself now that SHIELD's secrets have been leaked.

So my hypothesis is that SHIELD is a U.S. agency that the government allows allied countries to co-run with it through the World Security Council, but which is ultimately controlled by the U.S. President. (When it's not being taken over by HYDRA, of course.) I would further hypothesize that those allied countries have agreed by treaty to grant SHIELD jurisdiction over metahuman-related crises.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Re: Widow's age...it was clearly stated in this film that she was born in 1984.

Re: The casting of Peggy Carter...a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. We got a great romance plot in the origin film that continues to inform Cap's character (he's still waiting for the right partner). Plus she may be getting a spinoff. Let's leave it at that and be happy.

Re: Sharon. If she's still supposed to be Sharon Carter (and I'd be surprised if they didn't drop that squicky angle), she's a lot more likely to be a granddaughter than daughter.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

It's clearly governed by an international council, though. So, either way, the United States doesn't control SHIELD.

I think SHIELD is just not part of any government, but is allied to governments. That's how they can do good works for the US, but the countries are described as "allied with SHIELD."

 

[Trekker4747]

Who was Fury calling telling to come to DC (the I'll be there in four hours, you've got three thing)? Was it Agent Hill?

Yes, it was Hill. We see her picture on the phone-call HUD.

However, Natasha's reference to working for the KGB is anachronistic; the KGB was dissolved in late 1991, when Natasha would have been about seven years old. Either the KGB (and possibly the Soviet Union itself?) still exists in the Marvel Cinematic Universe of 2014, or Natasha actually worked for the FSB, the KGB's post-Soviet successor. (Which, admittedly, the FSB is made up largely of the same people operating

In The Avengers she enlists the help of a young girl, probably no older than 5 or so, to lure Banner to the meeting location. Banner quips/asks if they really "started them that young" (or words to that effect), BW: "I did."

So it's "possible" she worked for the KGB at a very young age for whatever reasons. But it also seems likely the Soviet Union lasted a little longer in the MCU than it did our as also in Avengers BW says, grimmly, "Regimes rise and fall everyday. I'm Russian, I'm used to that."

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Wasn't expecting anything quite so pyrrhic and cynical. I think the conceit of what we're willing to give up for liberty was nicely done without going too preachy. It didn't hurt that it was wrapped in some serious action.

The plan seemed a bit nuts to me though. I could see picking off people here and there but blitzing everyone at once seems like the turmoil would have been off the charts.

Speaking of nitpicks, I would've taken the odds of bullet vs Redford being able to press that tablet. So easily rectified by making it go off if his thumb went off the button instead but they rarely do that in movies.

EDIT: The old guy in me dug the retro 70's HYDRA computer system. That brings up another niggle though. They took an elevator down there but it seemed like they were right near the surface after the missile hit or did I miss something there?

Speaking of Easter Eggs . . . I'd somehow missed that Batroc the Leaper was in the movie. Very cool!

I knew I knew that name from somewhere...

Redford added nothing to the film.

I don't think he hurt anything, either. I liked that it didn't seem his role was overly puffed up because of the casting.

While not exactly stunt casting, I liked seeing Jenny Agutter in there as well.

 

[Kemaiku]

The KGB stopped a lot of it's official operation in 1991, but it took a while to dismantle. And could well have been continuing to carry out whatever it liked behind closed doors, training a new generation of assassins would not be out of the question.

 

[Admiral2]

I'm just gonna go with excellent and leave it at that.

Tell us more.

I just figured since I got on the thread like eight pages in and all the best points had already been covered. I'll just add these:

-fun to see "Batroc Ze Leapair" (possibly the silliest villain I've ever seen in a comic book) squaring off with Cap.

-three helicarriers, and they blew each other to smithereens. Multiple ship-loving nerdgasms!

-good job making Falcon not look like just another seventies black superhero.

-like Scarjo with the classic Widow long straight red hair.

 

[CaptainCanada]

Re: Sharon. If she's still supposed to be Sharon Carter (and I'd be surprised if they didn't drop that squicky angle), she's a lot more likely to be a granddaughter than daughter.

She's Peggy's niece now in the comics (notice that MCU Sharon mentioned having aunt earlier in the movie, though that could also just be a great-aunt, which would make more sense), not daughter. Emily VanCamp, the directors, etc. have all said that it's Sharon Carter (there's really no reason to use Peggy at all if you aren't going to use that connection).

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

The first two-thirds of the film was not perfect, but it was different, daring, dense, and exciting in a Tom Clancy kind of way, so why is it that the last third of the film had to be a big, loud, safe action set-piece that felt more like Avengers 1.5 than the rest of the film? The Dark Knight had an exciting action scene at the end, but nothing this big. Nolan had more confidence in his film.. that people would like it, that they would be thinking about it long after the film had come out, and a huge CGI-crapfest wasn't necessary to make that movie work.

 

[The Old Mixer]

The plan seemed a bit nuts to me though. I could see picking off people here and there but blitzing everyone at once seems like the turmoil would have been off the charts.

I must admit that I found that aspect to be a bit far-fetched...but I liked the whole package so much that I was willing to accept it on the basis that they needed some kind of ticking-clock jeopardy to prevent in the third act.

I thought Redford was great...definitely did more than his share in contributing to the film's gravitas.

And that's something that I was thinking about when comparing this film to Thor: TDW. TDW had a cosmic-scale concept (bad guys who ruled over the universe before it was the universe as we know it) that was shortchanged by a main villain who was neither threatening nor interesting and by uninspired Star Wars tech standing in for technology so advanced that it should appear to be magic. Whereas TWS had gravitas...it has the weight of fictitious history behind it and appears to be a real game-changer for the MCU setting, not a one-shot dilemma of the movie season.

 

[DEWLine]

Wired has a bit of video on the VFX sequences re: the Insight-class Helicarriers.

 

[Mr Light]

Excellent movie. Great storyline. Great action scenes. They really made everyone into a total badass, even the Falcon who I've never had strong feelings about. Great material for Fury.

I still can't believe they dissolved SHIELD at the end. What the hell does this mean for that TV shows called "Agents of SHIELD"???? Are they just going to be their own little Firefly/Torchwood show now, the last remaining ship of a lost cause?

I went into the movie assuming that Redford was the Red Skull, so I was surprised that didn't happen. And I was even more surprised that Zola was alive and behind it! That totally shocked me. Well done.

My only complaint, and it's a minor one, is that the Winter Soldier is completely unnecessary to the storyline. I expected the movie to be *about* him and his redemption, but instead he was just a drone called in a few times then he runs off at the end. Set up for Movie 3.

 

[DEWLine]

They didn't say that SHIELD was dissolved. "Laid waste" was the phrase used by that one US general at the hearings Romanov testified at towards the end.

Agents of SHIELD is going into a bit of "civil war" mode for the next half-dozen installments, apparently.

 

[Mr Light]

If SHIELD wasn't dissolved why did we see Maria Hill, Agent 13, and Nick Fury all looking for new jobs?

 

[The Old Mixer]

Fury had to because he's dead.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Their black operations were revealed to the world.

Fury would have signed off on a lot of murder that wasn't exactly legally called for, and they probably keeled over several governments, and that was just the good stuff they did because they were goodies and not the half of S.H.I.E.L.D. who knew that they were Hydra setting up half the shit the S.H.I.E.L.D. had to take down.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Deatails on the show being "retooled" for the final six episodes. But if this was the plan all along, how is really being re-tooled?

http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/...s-of-shield-tv-series/7313369/?linkId=7899022