You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

[AgentCoop]

^I've said it before, I'll say it again, I'll say it until the day I die: OWNERSHIP OF THE PLANET IS NEVER DEBATED IN THE MOVIE. Even Picard never claims the Baku own the planet. However it got that way, the movie is built on the premise that it's a Federation world.

 

[BillJ]

We know from The Augment trilogy that the Briar Patch belonged to the Klingons two hundred years prior so they may have had a claim on it long before that.

 

[Commishsleer]

I wonder how many of the Starfleet personnel observing knew what was going on? The Holoship was a Starfleet ship so some of them must have known what was going to happen even if Data didnt.

Well according to the script for the film I found online it sounded like only Dougherty knew what they were actually doing, which pretty much adds to how shady this thing looks.

Sorry I've asked this before but if Dougherty was doing something dodgy why would he get Data involved. Why not just call Picard and Riker in as well ? Why did he need Data there? Why not just have a bunch of flunkies?
Data being there makes as much sense as Troi or Crusher or Worf IMO?

 

[Hartzilla2007]

We know from The Augment trilogy that the Briar Patch belonged to the Klingons two hundred years prior so they may have had a claim on it long before that.

Actually from the Augment trilogy it sounds like the Klingons either had only recently moved in to the area (which was a century after the Ba'ku moved to the planet) or were just not interested in it (The Briar Patch is a crappy piece of real-estate) as it was said that they hadn't mapped the region at that point.

I wonder how many of the Starfleet personnel observing knew what was going on? The Holoship was a Starfleet ship so some of them must have known what was going to happen even if Data didnt.

Well according to the script for the film I found online it sounded like only Dougherty knew what they were actually doing, which pretty much adds to how shady this thing looks.

Sorry I've asked this before but if Dougherty was doing something dodgy why would he get Data involved.

Considering Data didn't know what was going on and was shot to keep it secret and if Picard had had to kill him Dougherty probably wouldn't have come forward with what was going on at all thats not exactly a good argument to make for this being on the up and up

Especially since at the time it looked like they were just doing another one of their covert observations of a pre-warp planet.

 

[Hober Mallow]

This is a lot more in-depth discussion than this film deserves.

 

[BillJ]

This is a lot more in-depth discussion than this film deserves.

You're absolutely right.

 

[Commishsleer]

We know from The Augment trilogy that the Briar Patch belonged to the Klingons two hundred years prior so they may have had a claim on it long before that.

Actually from the Augment trilogy it sounds like the Klingons either had only recently moved in to the area (which was a century after the Ba'ku moved to the planet) or were just not interested in it (The Briar Patch is a crappy piece of real-estate) as it was said that they hadn't mapped the region at that point.

Well according to the script for the film I found online it sounded like only Dougherty knew what they were actually doing, which pretty much adds to how shady this thing looks.

Sorry I've asked this before but if Dougherty was doing something dodgy why would he get Data involved.

Considering Data didn't know what was going on and was shot to keep it secret and if Picard had had to kill him Dougherty probably wouldn't have come forward with what was going on at all thats not exactly a good argument to make for this being on the up and up

Especially since at the time it looked like they were just doing another one of their covert observations of a pre-warp planet.

Q1. Why Data of all the thousands of officers in Starfleet especially when he is assigned to a ship?

Q2. If they thought the Baku were primitives (and it should be obvious in 5 minutes listening to their conversations that they were not) then what were the Federation planning to do? Surely the PD says to leave them alone and not move them from the planet. Even in Kirk's day no natives were forcibly moved from their planet even if they were sitting atop a great pile of dilithium crystals.

Q3. Did Dougherty or one of is flunkies shoot Data to keep it quiet?

 

[DonIago]

Q2: It's (supposed to be) obvious that (at least according to some) the Federation is in the middle of the worst war in its history, and consequently (depending on how you look at it) is willing to make some moral compromises that it wouldn't make at other times.

I'd note for those who take issue with the Son'a taking slaves that the Klingons have done far worse and yet the Federation allied itself with them.

 

[SeerSGB]

^Almost every argument used to defend the Baku is speculation, especially the reapeated claims that they "own" the planet. The movie makes NO SUCH CLAIM.

Considering you haven't provided any evidence that someone else owned the planet and gave it to the federation (and no the whole well somebody must have is crap pulled out of an ass until you have proof) then unless the federation colonized it (which they didn't) or the Ba'ku join the federation (which they didn't) the federation doesn't own the planet.

Also I find it funny that the Ba'ku are being held to a standard the federation never had to before when they set up colonies.

I wonder how many of the Starfleet personnel observing knew what was going on? The Holoship was a Starfleet ship so some of them must have known what was going to happen even if Data didnt.

Well according to the script for the film I found online it sounded like only Dougherty knew what they were actually doing, which pretty much adds to how shady this thing looks.

The holoship could be a bit of standard long-term observation kit. You've got the duck blinded, and then holoship for sims or other research.

 

[T'Girl]

Considering you haven't provided any evidence that someone else owned the planet and gave it to the federation ...

Why would someone have to give it to the Federation? It not like the people living in that single valley ever claimed it.

So here's this unclaimed planet, in this unclaimed area of space (after the Klingon stepped away), and the federation incorperated the entire area into their space.

Picard: "A planet in federation space."

 

[TheMurph]

A couple of things.

First, I enjoy the movie the way I enjoy STV. Yes it's a bad movie, but I turn off my critical thinking and just enjoy what I can.

Second, if we are going to critical think, is it not possible for a planet to be in Federation Space, but still not be a Federation planet? I want to say that has come up before in TOS or TNG, heck maybe even DS9, I can't remember.

 

[DonIago]

^It's possible, but it's never brought up in the film, even by the Baku or Picard. If the planet wasn't a Federation planet, it seems ridiculous that Picard never points this out.

Then again, it also seems ridiculous that nobody would ask the Baku if they were willing to leave the planet.

It's hard to discuss the film in a qualified manner when even such obvious points as these are never raised in the film itself.

 

[BillJ]

It's hard to discuss the film in a qualified manner when even such obvious points as these are never raised in the film itself.

Too many cooks in the kitchen syndrome.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

is it not possible for a planet to be in Federation Space, but still not be a Federation planet?

Yes, it's possible.

 

[cgervasi]

The fact that the Son'a are such open-and-shut baddies from the very first time we see them.

You know, good movie villains trade on ambiguity.

Yes. Some (most?) of the Son'a turned nice at the end. The ambiguity might helped that feel less sudden.

 

[Commishsleer]

So the 'nice' Sona would rather die than taint their parents with technology.

At least Anji would have the occasional rendesvous with an aging Picard to make up for the loss of her offspring.

 

[starburst]

^The S'ona needed Starfleet because it's a Federation planet.

Its in Federation Space, in an area that once there they could pretty much do what they wanted unless a Starfleet survey ship came along which didn't look like would be too much effort to deal with. Its not like it seems to hard to wander round Federation Space until you come across a Federation planet or base. Space is big so there could have been a way for the S'ona to get their people in place.

The reason I am now thinking they didn't was time, if the collector had only recently been developed then time would be of the essence for at least some of them, time they didn't have to slowly move into position. Of course your right about needing to get there they needed Federation approval as they could have settled far, far away from the Patch.

I can never figure out what Starfleet were doing with the holoship. Its like why did Marcus put 72 augment-laden torpedoes in the Enterprise in nuTrek.

The holoship brings up another problem, the cloaking device which could have led to the Romulans siding with the Dominion. Then again the Duck Blind also uses some form of cloaking technology, or possibly its based on holo technology which would solve the Romulan issue with both the Blind and the Holoship.

As for Marcus; deal with Khan, get rid of the remaining evidence and start a war at the same time… another topic though.

Sorry I've asked this before but if Dougherty was doing something dodgy why would he get Data involved. Why not just call Picard and Riker in as well ? Why did he need Data there? Why not just have a bunch of flunkies?
Data being there makes as much sense as Troi or Crusher or Worf IMO?

I think the script or novel (or both) suggests that in the original story Data was needed because of 'environmental anomalies' which obviously wouldn't effect him, the question was asked by Troi or Riker and answered by the other in the original library scene.

This is a lot more in-depth discussion than this film deserves.

You're absolutely right. 

Its not much more discussion than some other topics which really haven't needed discussing before.

know from The Augment trilogy that the Briar Patch belonged to the Klingons two hundred years prior so they may have had a claim on it long before that.

Actually from the Augment trilogy it sounds like the Klingons either had only recently moved in to the area (which was a century after the Ba'ku moved to the planet) or were just not interested in it (The Briar Patch is a crappy piece of real-estate) as it was said that they hadn't mapped the region at that point.

They had been there long enough to give it a name and know there were some planets there but obviously took little interest in it otherwise.

The holoship could be a bit of standard long-term observation kit. You've got the duck blinded, and then holoship for sims or other research.

Couldn't they have incorporated that into the Duck Blind? Plus bit random for a Holoship to be part of the standard equipment on such a mission and then hide it at the bottom of a lake.

 

[SeerSGB]

The holoship could be a bit of standard long-term observation kit. You've got the duck blinded, and then holoship for sims or other research.

Couldn't they have incorporated that into the Duck Blind? Plus bit random for a Holoship to be part of the standard equipment on such a mission and then hide it at the bottom of a lake.

Well the duckblind could be limiting: After all, how much or how big of a base could you hide right under the natives nose without something happening? Who Watches The Watchers for example.

So perhaps on a typical mission the holoship serves as larger lab and living space and gives them more flexibility. Hiding it in the water makes some form of sense: Keeps it off the trails, reduces the chance a stray hunter or someone out gathering food might stumble on it. The stupid move is hiding it in the village water supply.

As for cloaking tech: Yeah, that is one that didn't get explained. Especially when you toss in those nitfy cloaking suits the team has. You could argue that it wasn't a military type of cloak and was a variant of the duck blind holographic camo.

 

[BillJ]

Why would you need to land it on the ground at all with transporters?

 

[SeerSGB]

Why would you need to land it on the ground at all with transporters?

Probably wouldn't need to, unless you were on a planet with some exotic radiation issues that bugger up the transporter or the coms.

Which is another problem with the movie: Why land the holoshp at all? Transporters and coms clearly work on the planet. So why not bulk transport the Baku while on orbit?