The Night Of The Doctor

[Guy Gardener]

He should be angry at 8 for making 8.5.

8.5 didn't have any choice in who he was made to be, or even the capacity to notice there was a problem.

 

[Starkers]

On a different note. It's odd how eleven seemed angry at Hurt doctor for breaking the promise, when it was eight's conscious decision.

They're all the same man: he was angry at himself.

Plus McGann probably didn't know how far the War Doctor would go. A man might choose to sign up to fight in a war, but that doesn't mean he imagines he'll end up a war criminal.

 

[DS9Continuing]

By the way, BBC Radio is going to be re-running a ton of Doctor Who audio dramas for several different doctors, including two Eighth Doctor / Lucie Miller stories.

First Doctor - The Dalek Invasion of Earth
First Doctor - Farewell Great Macedon
Movie Doctor (Cushing) - Doctor Who and the Daleks
Fifth Doctor - Fanfare for the Common Men
Seventh Doctor - A Thousand Tiny Wings
Seventh Doctor - Protect and Survive
Eighth Doctor - Human Resources
Eighth Doctor - Lucie Miller / To the Death

If you don't catch them at the time (which is likely given that most are on overnight) they'll be available on the iPlayer for the week after.

.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

You know though, I do find it a bit of a cheat that the Doctor who did this terrible thing wasn't REALLY the Doctor. To me, part of the fascination with this character is that he's overall a very good man who wants and tries desperately to do the right thing and resolve things peacefully. The Time War was always played out as the one time he had to put his morality aside for the greater good and do something he never thought he could. He did it, this good man, and that's why it's haunted him for so long now in NuWho. But to take that away, or water it down at least, by saying, "well, it wasn't REALLY the Doctor, it was a special version that did it" excises the responsibility and the guilt. We'll have to wait and see to what degree, but either way it's a cheat in order for him to remain as unsullied as possible when it should really be completely on his shoulders and conscience, not just sort of. I think it detracts then from 9 and 10's pain in their runs.

 

[DS9Continuing]

He did it, this good man, and that's why it's haunted him for so long now in NuWho. But to take that away, or water it down at least, by saying, "well, it wasn't REALLY the Doctor, it was a special version that did it" excises the responsibility and the guilt.

Well, I think that's where the part about it being a decision he made when was still 'the Doctor' is important. He made the choice to become the kind of person who would do those things, so the ultimate responsibility still lies with him.

.

 

[Captaindemotion]

And he was the same man, he just shed his title to do so.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

But to take that away, or water it down at least, by saying, "well, it wasn't REALLY the Doctor, it was a special version that did it" excises the responsibility and the guilt. We'll have to wait and see to what degree, but either way it's a cheat in order for him to remain as unsullied as possible when it should really be completely on his shoulders and conscience, not just sort of. I think it detracts then from 9 and 10's pain in their runs.

Have you ever heard of dissociative disorder? It's quite common among people who experience feelings of extreme guilt, and it's not completely different from what we're talking about here. It doesn't detract from the Doctor's pain, quite the contrary, in my opinion, it adds another layer of pain on top of it.

 

[Sean_McCormick]

Sure, Cass could be brought back, but then, why? It's much easier to just bring the actress back, isn't it? As a new, separate, living character, that is.

Spatial genetic multiplicity, then?

The actress previously appeared as Doctor Kent in the series 6 finale. Where she also died, although in the all-history-at-once-timeline, so that character may still be alive in the proper timeline.

Although: Space pilot from the future >>> contemporary scientist

 

[Australis]

Late to the party, but...

WOW

WOW

WOW!!

Did Not Sere That Coming!

Amazingly cool, and I would be so there for a series of 8th Doctor (and kinda sad RTD didn't go down that road).

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Late to the party, but...

WOW

WOW

WOW!!

Did Not Sere That Coming!

Amazingly cool, and I would be so there for a series of 8th Doctor (and kinda sad RTD didn't go down that road).

RTD wanted to use him, actually, but the BBC vetoed him on it early on.

And honestly, as much as I also grieve for the Eighth Doctor not having a run of his own on TV, but the TV Movie kinda ruined it for him. If you look at that and Rose side by side, you'll see what did the latter do right as a reboot and what the former didn't as an introduction.

That being said, I'd have loved to have had Paul McGann as the Doctor in 2005. I'm sure he'd have stayed for a couple of seasons at least, and with the audios before them, he'd be a complete Doctor early on.

As is, he's still a great Doctor. The audio stories have helped bring him to the fold unlike any other Doctor, and were it not for those, I doubt he'd have been as effective as he was in the minisode yesterday, as that performance was informed by the years and years of characterization the Big Finish have thrust upon him. The name dropping is not the only thing Big Finish did for him - it truly shaped the man, too.

 

[Christopher]

Wow...just wow! "Not the doctor you expected"...indeed! Would that count as breaking the fourth wall?

Technically, no, since it was justified in-story as something the Doctor was saying to Cass, since her computer was talking about summoning medical help and she was insisting that she didn't need a doctor. (Which was a rather contrived setup for that line, in retrospect.) So the character wasn't actually addressing the audience or acknowledging our existence, just saying something to another character that had an additional subtext for the audience. It's not breaking the fourth wall, just nudging against it a little.

You know though, I do find it a bit of a cheat that the Doctor who did this terrible thing wasn't REALLY the Doctor. ... But to take that away, or water it down at least, by saying, "well, it wasn't REALLY the Doctor, it was a special version that did it" excises the responsibility and the guilt.

No, it doesn't. As stated before, this is actually the same exact continuous individual. He just chose to adopt a different persona for a time, to set aside his usual value system and adapt to the grim necessities of the war. And then, once it was over, he tried very, very hard to forget the man he'd let himself become. He tells himself that his war persona wasn't really The Doctor, that it was someone separate, but that's a convenient fiction he created so he can live with himself.

 

[BillJ]

What's up (my Facebook is Bryce Burchett and email 03dashk64@gmail.com - I'm asking because I've had a shitty year too...as in stockpiling pills to kill myself. It's why my friend started the page in my .sig bellow. As a deal not to off myself. And I'm probably not gonna keep my end up. My oldest daughter lives with me and just told me a couple of days ago she's off to stay with y friend and his wife on Monday. Just like that. She can't stand my depression - but thinks leaving me alone on the holidays will make me better.

All I can say is that life's worth living and that's coming from someone who has depression and crippling anxiety. It also may be better for your daughter to move and give you both some space, you guys might then cherish the time you spend together more.

Besides, kids can be selfish. Trust this from someone who has a twenty-year old daughter.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

This story on yahoo describes John Hurt as

Spoiler: name

"the mysterious echo Doctor"

Any ideas on that title?

I'd just call it the article writer's choice of words and nothing more. We know from the "Night of the Doctor" credits that Hurt's character is called "The War Doctor."

I wasn't thinking of it as a title like "War Doctor", but maybe a description of the nature of the character.

Like, maybe it indicates he will change back to McGann, making Hurt more of an "echo".

 

[Lonemagpie]

If they are able to get Eccleston to appear in the 50th anniversary and kept that under wraps, I think I will understand the glee this thread was spewing out today.

Well, Moffat did say in the interview upthread that he wants to have "the box set - all the regenerations" so I guess it's up to whether Eccles would have agreed/was available to do it.

And I'd say the odds just shortened a *lot* on seeing Hurt regenerate into stock footage of Eccles- in fact I'd go so far as to say that with the story arc structure they now have, it's pretty much a necessity.

 

[Lonemagpie]

Any other year I might have squeed or might have cringed, but this year I just really too broken to really...*feel* anything about a TV show. Or much of anything else, really.

What's up (my Facebook is Bryce Burchett and email 03dashk64@gmail.com - I'm asking because I've had a shitty year too...as in stockpiling pills to kill myself. It's why my friend started the page in my .sig bellow. As a deal not to off myself. And I'm probably not gonna keep my end up. My oldest daughter lives with me and just told me a couple of days ago she's off to stay with y friend and his wife on Monday. Just like that. She can't stand my depression - but thinks leaving me alone on the holidays will make me better.

OTHER THAN THAT - I was pretty stoked - and totally surprised - when McGann stepped out of the shadows. Something I'm been waiting for a *loooong* time. (Now if only Eccleston hadn't been such a prick to the fans and done the special st least just for us.) I almost am only 1/2 joking when I said "*NOW* I can die happy."

Long story, lots of stress - starts with talking a friend of a dozen years out of killing herself on Good Friday, promising I'll always be there to talk, then her killing herself on Easter Saturday night/Sunday morning while I was away, and pretty much gone downhill from there.

Oh yeah, guilt, I know that one. Basically - see that last couple of minutes of Waters Of Mars? Been there, done that, just without the Ood. And I'm not doing a good job of getting past it.

Throw in cats dying, best friend driven off, a wife who's been ill a lot this year, and the stress of moving a 78 year-old mother-in-law to a new house, and it's been a stressful and depressing year.

I seem to have picked up more work than ever this year, which is weird.

Anybody who's followed my livejournal (lonemagpie.livejournal.com), facebook (David A McIntee), or tumblr (originallonemagpie.tumblr.com) will have seen all this already...

You kKeep that deal - you've still got Capaldi to look forward to. If only he could play it as Malcolm Tucker...

(There needs to be an Enterprise story also, explaining how Malcolm Tucker is some ancestor of Trip's...)

 

[Neroon]

....

bryce, I strongly urge you to seek some assistance in another venue, for your benefit.

 

[Lonemagpie]

But, y'know, back to the Night of the Doctor - I saw some folks assume it was released early because of an impending leak, but TBH, I think Paul McGann's birthday, and the weekend's big charity dos, had more influence on that decision.

 

[Christopher]

I'd just call it the article writer's choice of words and nothing more. We know from the "Night of the Doctor" credits that Hurt's character is called "The War Doctor."

I wasn't thinking of it as a title like "War Doctor", but maybe a description of the nature of the character.

It's how he was named in the credits -- "John Hurt as the War Doctor" -- and that makes it an official designation, at least unless we learn otherwise next Saturday.

Like, maybe it indicates he will change back to McGann, making Hurt more of an "echo".

Wishful thinking. Ohila stated unambiguously that the Eighth Doctor died. She was able to bring him back for four minutes, long enough to let him regenerate, and was able to use Sisterhood potions to guide what form that regeneration took, but this was definitively the end of his life. Hurt is not an "echo," he's a full-on incarnation. He's the Doctor's actual ninth life, the incarnation between McGann and Eccleston.

I mean, look at that final shot. When McGann regenerates, he has the face of the young John Hurt. Clearly the War Doctor was around for a long time, long enough to grow old, which suggests that he lived longer than any other incarnation except the First Doctor. How can that be called an "echo"?

 

[intrinsical]

I guess a lot depends on Moffat's definition of "50th anniversary year".

Technically the 50th anniversary year is from 23 Nov 2013 till 22 Nov 2014. McGann's regeneration does not fall in this date range so perhaps Moffat is alluding to John Hurt's regeneration into Eccelston and Smith's regeneration into Capaldi.

My guess is he's not being technically accurate so McGann's regeneration counts as one, Smith's regeneration is the second and there won't be a John Hurt to Eccelston regeneration.

 

[Christopher]

Or he's just saying there are two in order to conceal a third. We know his statements aren't always truthful. Anyway, we'll know in eight days whether or not Eccleston appears in "The Day of the Doctor," so I don't feel any great urge to dwell on speculation or argument. Easier just to wait and see what happens, since it won't be long now.