My Grievances of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

[Grendelsbayne]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Simple. To try to trick Marcus into loading a ship up with the top secret torpedoes to go after him, thereby creating the best opportunity to get his people out of the clutches of Section 31. Marcus was salivating too much, from the opportunity to start his pet war, for him to realize how he was being played.

But the torpedoes did have live warheads. If Marcus fired them, Khan would just die with his people. And Khan couldn't know that Kirk would come and decide to take him prisoner instead of just killing him. If it weren't for kirk's entirely unplanned shuttle ride, Khan would simply be stuck wandering around some Klingon ruins.

How do you know they had live warheads? When did any of them explode? When could any of them be scanned before our heroes figured out how to open them?

No, the whole point was that they were not really torpedoes at all. They just appeared to be. The only time any of them blew up was after the bodies were removed and one was turned into a real torpedo.

I remember it being specifically mentioned in the film. Not sure exactly where, and transcripts don't seem to be available yet. Anyway, firing the torpedoes would pretty much be the death of khan's crew, either way, if not Khan himself.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

 

[Set Harth]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Simple. To try to trick Marcus into loading a ship up with the top secret torpedoes to go after him, thereby creating the best opportunity to get his people out of the clutches of Section 31. Marcus was salivating too much, from the opportunity to start his pet war, for him to realize how he was being played.

But the torpedoes did have live warheads. If Marcus fired them, Khan would just die with his people. And Khan couldn't know that Kirk would come and decide to take him prisoner instead of just killing him. If it weren't for kirk's entirely unplanned shuttle ride, Khan would simply be stuck wandering around some Klingon ruins.

How do you know they had live warheads? When did any of them explode? When could any of them be scanned before our heroes figured out how to open them?

No, the whole point was that they were not really torpedoes at all. They just appeared to be. The only time any of them blew up was after the bodies were removed and one was turned into a real torpedo.

I'm afraid that's incorrect. Marcus' plan of having Kirk fire the torpedoes at the Klingon world makes no sense if the torpedoes aren't really torpedoes. And we can see from Marcus' dialogue that he knew Khan's people were in them. It is also apparent that he didn't intend for Kirk to open one of them up. If the Enterprise tried to fire them and they just didn't fire, what then? How is Enterprise sitting in the NZ going "wha happen" intended to start a war? The torpedoes can be "turned into real torpedoes" simply by arming them, because they are real torpedoes.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

If they were real, but unarmed, so be it. I don't remember anything in the film to contradict that. That's really consistent with what I said.

But, I don't believe that Marcus knew Khan's people were in the torpedoes when he gave them to Kirk. I'm going to need someone to cite me chapter and verse from the film to back that up, and interpreting someone's facial reaction just isn't going to be enough to convince me of that.

Khan tricked Marcus. Marcus thought he was giving Kirk fully armed, ready to fire torpedoes, but he wasn't. Marcus intended Kirk to fire them, and he thought they would work and start his war. He didn't count on Kirk disobeying orders, and he hadn't counted on Khan being up to his own tricks, either.

 

[UFO]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

If the plan was detailed ahead of time, how could they know for sure it would be Kirk going after Khan and not someone else, considering that was a clear result of Pike's death - an unpredictable event? How could they even be sure that Kirk would actually survive the attack on the briefing room?

It's impossible for Marcus' plan not to have been set in motion before Nero showed up. How could he possibly have built Vengeance, in secret, in less than a year? And he clearly tells us he wanted Kirk in that seat, he helped Pike advocate for Kirk Captaining the Enterprise.

It would be interesting to see some quotes of this advocacy. I don't believe Pike supported Kirk becoming captain in either film, but I only saw STiD once. It would reduce my opinion of him if he did. Not that I believe he or Marcus should have been able to achieve that end, even if they had been irresponsible enough to have tried. Similarly didn't Marcus only get Kirk back into the captain's seat?

Of course Khan going on the run wasn't part of his plan, he lost control of him, no one plans to have their own head popped like a zit. His plan was to start a war with the Klingons, and to be prepared for it, which included having the Behemoth Vengeance available and have the right people in the right places, including Khan and/or the other Augments as well as "His" Starfleet personnel that he knew would be onboard and not question what was going on if things looked suspicious when he made the move to start the war.

Since Kirk is a loose canon, it doesn't seem like a good idea for Marcus to involve him in plan that required someone to follow orders (in a questionable situation).

If Khan's runner was completely outside Marcus' control - why would Khan ever choose *Qonos* as the best hiding place?

Simple. To try to trick Marcus into loading a ship up with the top secret torpedoes to go after him, thereby creating the best opportunity to get his people out of the clutches of Section 31. Marcus was salivating too much, from the opportunity to start his pet war, for him to realize how he was being played.

But the torpedoes did have live warheads. If Marcus fired them, Khan would just die with his people. And Khan couldn't know that Kirk would come and decide to take him prisoner instead of just killing him. If it weren't for kirk's entirely unplanned shuttle ride, Khan would simply be stuck wandering around some Klingon ruins.

And I believe Khan didn't know the torpedoes were the ones containing his crew until Kirk told him how many he had (or some such). So not part of Khan's plan (he thought his crew were already dead anyway didn't he, hence his bad mood?) and it didn't seem to make sense from Marcus' POV either.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

And I believe Khan didn't know the torpedoes were the ones containing his crew until Kirk told him how many he had (or some such). So not part of Khan's plan (he thought his crew were already dead anyway didn't he, hence his bad mood?) and it didn't seem to make sense from Marcus' POV either.

Of course Khan wasn't certain what Marcus had given Kirk. Khan wasn't there when the Enterprise was armed.

All Khan could do was light the fuse and hope that Marcus would unwittingly play along as Khan hoped. But when Khan heard how many torpedoes Kirk had, he knew what he hoped would happen had in fact occurred: he had managed to get his people smuggled out of Section 31.

 

[SeerSGB]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

If the plan was detailed ahead of time, how could they know for sure it would be Kirk going after Khan and not someone else, considering that was a clear result of Pike's death - an unpredictable event? How could they even be sure that Kirk would actually survive the attack on the briefing room?

It's impossible for Marcus' plan not to have been set in motion before Nero showed up. How could he possibly have built Vengeance, in secret, in less than a year? And he clearly tells us he wanted Kirk in that seat, he helped Pike advocate for Kirk Captaining the Enterprise.

It would be interesting to see some quotes of this advocacy. I don't believe Pike supported Kirk becoming captain in either film, but I only saw STiD once. It would reduce my opinion of him if he did. Not that I believe he or Marcus should have been able to achieve that end, even if they had been irresponsible enough to have tried. Similarly didn't Marcus only get Kirk back into the captain's seat?

Pike said he gave Kirk the Enterprise and Marcus said Pike defended Kirk. So yeah, Pike was the guy that got Kirk the command.

 

[Set Harth]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

But, I don't believe that Marcus knew Khan's people were in the torpedoes when he gave them to Kirk.

Yeah, he did. We know that because he speaks of them being in there without Kirk or anyone else having told him that.

If they were real, but unarmed, so be it. I don't remember anything in the film to contradict that. That's really consistent with what I said.

I think I may have given the wrong impression when I used the term 'armed'. They were always 'armed' meaning ready to function as torpedoes. They weren't just things that looked like torpedoes.

 

[BillJ]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

I don't think the torpedoes were armed, but I also don't think they were untraceable. Once the Enterprise launched the torpedoes, the Klingons would've spotted them and shot them down then went after the Enterprise. Which Marcus would claim had gone rogue.

Plus, I think Marcus knew exactly where Khan went. Why else would he have allowed Enterprise crewmembers around the wreckage?

Once Pike was dead, he was counting on Kirk going off half-cocked after Khan with revenge on his mind.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

But, I don't believe that Marcus knew Khan's people were in the torpedoes when he gave them to Kirk.

Yeah, he did. We know that because he speaks of them being in there without Kirk or anyone else having told him that.

Once Marcus discovered that Khan's people were missing, you'd think he'd be able to figure out what had happened to them. The issue is whether Marcus intentionally gave Kirk possession of Khan's people. If Marcus had just wanted the superhumans dead, he could have just killed them, you know. Zap, they're dead.

 

[Set Harth]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

The torpedoes were armed, that's how they were able to make them go off inside the Vengeance. They always had that capability.

 

[SeerSGB]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

I don't think the torpedoes were armed, but I also don't think they were untraceable. Once the Enterprise launched the torpedoes, the Klingons would've spotted them and shot them down then went after the Enterprise. Which Marcus would claim had gone rogue.

Plus, I think Marcus knew exactly where Khan went. Why else would he have allowed Enterprise crewmembers around the wreckage?

Once Pike was dead, he was counting on Kirk going off half-cocked after Khan with revenge on his mind.

That's why I think the attack on Daystrom was part of the plan. 1) Gives Marcus more ammo, 2) Eliminates any stumbling blocks, like Pike.

I see Marcus and Khan's relationship more a chess game. Khan was never 100% out of Marcu's control, he was being played; likewise, Marcus didn't have Khan 100% on a leash and had to improvise or adjust when Khan veered away from what Marcus predicts.

 

[BillJ]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

The torpedoes were armed, that's how they were able to make them go off inside the Vengeance. They always had that capability.

We really don't know that for sure. They could have easily put explosives where the cryo-tubes were. Even if they still had weapons payload, my scenario still works out.

 

[BillJ]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

That's why I think the attack on Daystrom was part of the plan.

Not sure I would exactly call if part of the plan, but something that Marcus knew could be coming.

 

[Set Harth]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Once Marcus discovered that Khan's people were missing, you'd think he'd be able to figure out what had happened to them.

Your timeline is off. According to Khan's story his plan was discovered before Kirk was sent on the mission.

They could have easily put explosives where the cryo-tubes were.

I really don't think that's what they meant by "armed the torpedoes".

From the novelization:

As Kirk continued running, his eyes widened slightly. "The torpedoes. He armed the damn torpedoes."
Beside him, Scott was disbelieving. "He couldna gotten away with such, Captain. Surely Khan would have checked them as soon as he got them on board the other ship?"
"As anxious as he was to get his crew back..." Kirk muttered. "No, you're right, Scotty. But he'd have to scan them one at a time. Besides, who would be fool enough to try to arm one manually, right? A photon torpedo is always armed by the sending of an electronic code. Once on the warship, they and their potentially dangerous warheads would be immune to interference from outside, safe behind the warship's shields. And if only one was manually armed..."
The chief engineer was nodding to himself. "Aye... then Khan would have to scan that one specifically to even suspect anything was amiss."

Earlier in the novelization ( this is Carol speaking ):

"Unfortunately for us, the warheads on these weapons are live."

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

If Khan said it, then it must be true.

 

[UFO]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Of course Khan wasn't certain what Marcus had given Kirk. Khan wasn't there when the Enterprise was armed.

All Khan could do was light the fuse and hope that Marcus would unwittingly play along as Khan hoped. But when Khan heard how many torpedoes Kirk had, he knew what he hoped would happen had in fact occurred: he had managed to get his people smuggled out of Section 31.

My understanding is that Khan was going to use the torpedoes to smuggle his crew away from Marcus and co. A strange plan but "OK". I also understand that he had to leave town because Marcus found out about this. He believed Marcus would kill them out of hand, though I think Marcus would have had other uses for them than mere destruction. Although there would have been far better ways to do that. Ways that didn't involve the possibility of them being discovered by Kirk and co for example. No, the only "reason" they are used is so Khan will go along with Kirk peacefully and the plot can move on.

Khan can have no expectation that Marcus would send any of them after him, even if Marcus didn't know what was in them. And how did no-one find them during routine checks before sending them out etc? Why would he use all of them? Why the embargo on Scotty examining them if Marcus didn't know what was in them? It's such crazy wishful thinking it doesn't qualify as a plan (or part of a plot for that matter).

Pike said he gave Kirk the Enterprise and Marcus said Pike defended Kirk. So yeah, Pike was the guy that got Kirk the command.

Well that's unfortunate (as well as being unlikely for such an organisation in my view).

 

[Set Harth]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

If Khan said it, then it must be true.

Yeah, exposition has to rely on character dialogue sometimes, isn't it a bitch? If Marcus didn't know Khan's people were in the torpedoes when Kirk was sent out, what is the point of Khan lying about it? What difference does it make? Wouldn't it serve his purposes just as well to tell the truth there? I don't think it's a good idea to rewrite the character into someone who lies for no tangible purpose.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

IIRC, when Khan was in the brig, he was telling Kirk and company things we knew to be lies. But I'll be happy to come back to this, once the script is online, or there's a good transcript, or I get the movie.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Did GRs fantasy of himself as a boy destroy Star Trek as we knew it? Nope we sucked it up and moved on.

But for at least four years an awful lot of "Throw Wesley out the airlock" buttons were sold at conventions.

If Khan's runner was completely outside Marcus' control - why would Khan ever choose *Qonos* as the best hiding place?

Simple. To try to trick Marcus into loading a ship up with the top secret torpedoes to go after him, thereby creating the best opportunity to get his people out of the clutches of Section 31. Marcus was salivating too much, from the opportunity to start his pet war, for him to realize how he was being played.

My own theory/expectation, while watching the film that first time, was that an original plan by Section 31 was for Khan and his 72 followers, in torpedo tubes, to be softlanded on Q'onos and take over the whole planet, much like Kor and his men took over Organia in the original timeline.

But unleashing 73 Eugenics supersoldiers might have been worse than waiting for Klingons to activate their attack on Earth, and Marcus came up with alternate plans.