My Grievances of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

[BillJ]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

It started out as one, relatively speaking, yes. I completely agree with you that that believability was abandoned by stages over the years in pursuit of profits and in the service of sentimentality (cf. my last post); TNG recovered a bit of it, subsequent shows frittered it away, and the loss of that believability was a big reason for ENTERPRISE's final flop.

They threw out all believability for Starfleet as a military organization when Spock was able to hijack the Enterprise and head for the planet of death without even a hand slap afterward in season one.

For me, the reason Enterprise failed was it was boring and constantly covering ground the other shows had in the absolutely least interesting way possible.

 

[SeerSGB]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

It doesn't have to work within the realm of reality, cause it fits within the mandate of the monomyth.

I've always thought this was a lame excuse for George Lucas' bad writing, too, and Campbell something of an overrated charlatan as a scholar of "myth." So I can't really buy it.

In some fairness to NuTrek, though, the breaking-of-believability with Kirk didn't start with Abrams. Kirk-as-Gary Stu began to grow in the decade after the show's cancellation; by the time TNG rolled around he had been inflated into virtually the most important carbon-based lifeform of his time, rather than just the outstanding member of a prestigious "space navy" that he was originally conceived (Horatio Hornblower-style) to be. So, the Kirk Myth has been stupid for a long time. It's just gotten extra-stupid with NuTrek, where even the foundation of relative believability that Kirk at least started with has been stripped away.

There's never been any believability to Kirk or his crew. If there was he'd been stripped of command a dozen times over before the end of TOS. He's a superhero, in the same vain as pre-crisis Batman or even Hal Jordan; he's a larger than life character, always has been.

 

[BigJake]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

They threw out all believability for Starfleet as a military organization when Spock was able to hijack the Enterprise and head for the planet of death without even a hand slap afterward in season one.

I did say relatively speaking. If Starfleet's behaviour in TOS was often subject to the distortions of script crunches and narrative convenience, it was streaks more credible as an attempt at believability than any televised SF that came before it. NuTrek has no such excuses.

 

[SeerSGB]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

They threw out all believability for Starfleet as a military organization when Spock was able to hijack the Enterprise and head for the planet of death without even a hand slap afterward in season one.

I did say relatively speaking. If Starfleet's behaviour in TOS was often subject to the distortions of script crunches and narrative convenience, it was streaks more credible as an attempt at believability than any televised SF that came before it. NuTrek has no such excuses.

Except scale: TOS had 79 episodes and it still made sacrifices in believability to serve the story. The movies have two hours, so in terms of scale they need to make more sacrifices to move the story along; they don't get the luxury of world building and a lot of detailed background info.

 

[BillJ]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

They threw out all believability for Starfleet as a military organization when Spock was able to hijack the Enterprise and head for the planet of death without even a hand slap afterward in season one.

I did say relatively speaking. If Starfleet's behaviour in TOS was often subject to the distortions of script crunches and narrative convenience, it was streaks more credible as an attempt at believability than any televised SF that came before it. NuTrek has no such excuses.

Now you're trying to make excuses and moving the goal posts.

Do you know why I started watching Star Trek? Because it was fun to watch and didn't take itself too seriously. It's the exact same reason I like the Abrams films. The fun and adventure come first. I don't need it to be a training video on military promotion rules and practices. YMMV.

 

[BigJake]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

He's a superhero, in the same vain as pre-crisis Batman or even Hal Jordan; he's a larger than life character, always has been.

"Larger-than-life" and "superhero" are different things. Kirk was later inflated into a superhero, but -- for all his improbable seductions and getting-saved-by-the-script-writer -- he is still a heroic character on the actual show, closer to Horatio Hornblower than Superman. He struggles with human issues, he sometimes fails or has to be saved by blind luck, he gets things wrong and muddles through. The Kirk-as-a-superhero business is a retcon that doesn't fit his portrayal on the show.

 

[BigJake]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Now you're trying to make excuses and moving the goal posts.

I'm not moving any goalposts. The goalposts are firmly situated around believability, more of it being better, less of it being not-better, and writing getting and losing points for moving toward and away from them accordingly.

 

[BillJ]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

The Kirk-as-a-superhero business is a retcon that doesn't fit his portrayal on the show.

Sure it does. Kirk always wins no matter how improbable the odds.

 

[BillJ]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Now you're trying to make excuses and moving the goal posts.

I'm not moving any goalposts. The goalposts are firmly situated around believability, more of it being better, less of it being not-better, and writing getting and losing points for moving toward and away from them accordingly.

Then TOS should get 0 points because very little of it was actually believable and I say that as someone who ranks it as their favorite show of all time.

 

[BigJake]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Sure it does. Kirk always wins no matter how improbable the odds.

Actually he doesn't. The mission portrayed in "Metamorphosis," for example, is strictly-speaking a failure. He has to be saved from himself by the aliens-of-the-week in "Errand of Mercy," and winds up embarrassed. He usually wins as befits the protagonist of an action show, but he is simply not the all-conquering demigod later myth inflates him into.

 

[SeerSGB]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

He's a superhero, in the same vain as pre-crisis Batman or even Hal Jordan; he's a larger than life character, always has been.

"Larger-than-life" and "superhero" are different things. Kirk was later inflated into a superhero, but -- for all his improbable seductions and getting-saved-by-the-script-writer -- he is still a heroic character on the actual show, closer to Horatio Hornblower than Superman. He struggles with human issues, he sometimes fails or has to be saved by blind luck, he gets things wrong and muddles through. The Kirk-as-a-superhero business is a retcon that doesn't fit his portrayal on the show.

The Hornblower nonsense is post TOS PR bullshit. TOS is a fucking western in space. Kirk is a gunslinger in a white hat that rides into town, woos the saloon girl with a heart of gold, guns down the bad guy or crooked town mayor, and rides off into the sunset. The Hornblower shit was just an attempt to hide what TOS really was.

And, yes even in TOS, Kirk was more super-hero than plain hero. Larger than life, heroic, and able to do shit that a common man couldn't. Maybe more western cowboy than crimefighter, but cut from the same cheesy comic-book cloth.

 

[Opus]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

All of Trek suspends belief as a military organization. There's no way these crews would stay together as long as they did. People are moved around often to ensure personnel get the most experience in a wide variety of jobs and with a number of different commands.

Some seem to be holding nuTrek to a standard that Trek has never held.

Again.

 

[BigJake]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Then TOS should get 0 points because very little of it was actually believable

Now, Bill, you're the one moving goalposts. I said writing gets points for moving toward believability, which Trek in fact did do. If you are telling me you think TOS Trek was on the same footing in that regard as Lost in Space, then with greatest respect, I would have to question your credibility as a judge of what "believability" actually means.

 

[BigJake]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

The Hornblower nonsense is post TOS PR bullshit.

Actually it's in the original series writer's bible. Nice try.

 

[BigJake]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Some seem to be holding nuTrek to a standard that Trek has never held

Not so. I've said quite clearly that NuTrek isn't the first to play silly-buggers with believability. Just that Trek at its best has tacked toward it, and at its worst has suffered for tacking away from it. NuTrek most certainly represents, to me, "at its worst;" I find it hard to think of a prior deformation of Starfleet behaviour that compares to miraculously promoting Kirk to the captain's chair from the rank of cadet.

 

[Opus]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Star Trek - Ludicrous faster-than-light speeds using magic rocks.

Totally Real!

Riiiiiiight....

 

[BillJ]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Then TOS should get 0 points because very little of it was actually believable

Now, Bill, you're the one moving goalposts. I said writing gets points for moving toward believability, which Trek in fact did do. If you are telling me you think TOS Trek was on the same footing in that regard as Lost in Space, then with greatest respect, I would have to question your credibility as a judge of what "believability" actually means.

Very nice that you clipped my comment mid-sentence...

You know who else had the opportunity to go from Lieutenant to Captain? Number One from "The Cage", something happens to Pike and as first officer she is the next in the line for command. You also had Lieutenant Commander Spock early in season one who was next in line for command and had never even commanded a survey mission before ("The Galileo Seven").

So what exactly is so believable about how TOS handled rank and command in comparison to the Abramsverse?

 

[BigJake]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Star Trek - Ludicrous faster-than-light speeds using magic rocks.

Totally Real!

"There's fantastical things happening, so we don't have to worry about believability" is the lamest possible defense of bad SF writing.

 

[BigJake]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

So what exactly is so believable about how TOS handled rank and command in comparison to the Abramsverse?

Sorry, were either of your examples actually promoted to the rank of Captain? And were they so from the rank of cadet? Your question answers itself.

 

[Opus]

Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

So is holding nuTrek to a standard that the rest of Trek was never held to, like the way military moves around personnel.