What is the strongest ship in the Federation fleet in the Dominion War

[Edit_XYZ]

Re: What is the strongest ship in the Federation fleet in the Dominion

The Defiant still blew up.

Only to be 'resurrected' immediately - identical ship, crew with no losses.

PS:
Sran, you remain, as always, a troll.

Actually, that wasn't the same ship. It was the Sao Paulo. And personally I don't get why Sisko wanted another Defiant class ship. I'd be ashamed if I got one of those. I'd rather get an Excelsior, Akira, Galaxy, or Nebula class.

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, - especially on a tv show -, then it is a duck.

As for the other shown classes of federation ships - as said, on-screen performance against dominion ships - even buffed up cardassian ships - was underwhelming. Have we even seen one take out a dominion bug throughout the show?
Sisko choosing a defiant was out of self-preservation.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

Re: What is the strongest ship in the Federation fleet in the Dominion

And personally I don't get why Sisko wanted another Defiant class ship.

When is it ever stated that he wanted a Defiant-class ship? The only dialogue about the vessel happened in "Dogs of War" when Dax stated that she didn't realize they were getting another Defiant-class ship. Sisko says nothing about wanting that type of ship.

In any event, it's not surprising that he would get a ship similar to what he had before. Sisko helped design the Defiant and his crew was familiar with the vessel's systems.

--Sran

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

Re: What is the strongest ship in the Federation fleet in the Dominion

Sisko choosing a defiant was out of self-preservation.

Except that there's no evidence whatsoever that he actually chose the vessel. He got what was available. We have no way of knowing whether he actually selected Sao Paulo from a list of ready-made ships.

--Sran

 

[Timo]

Re: What is the strongest ship in the Federation fleet in the Dominion

In any event, it's not surprising that he would get a ship similar to what he had before. Sisko helped design the Defiant and his crew was familiar with the vessel's systems.

And that brings about an interesting issue. Apparently, not everything our heroes did to their little ship was "public knowledge" - indeed, even the ambitious, unscrupulous and high-ranking Leyton could not dig up all of it in "Paradise Lost". And any ship built to the original Defiant class blueprints would have been a lemon, supposedly, as per "The Search". So, was the Sao Paulo better, worse or similar to the original?

What had O'Brien changed? Had he solved the original problems, or had he merely imposed flight envelope limitations so that the problems wouldn't manifest? Had he upgunned or downgunned the ship, upengined or downengined, tuned or detuned? Was the Sao Paulo a series production model, or simply the last of the original, failed and thus expendable prototypes?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

Re: What is the strongest ship in the Federation fleet in the Dominion

In any event, it's not surprising that he would get a ship similar to what he had before. Sisko helped design the Defiant and his crew was familiar with the vessel's systems.

And that brings about an interesting issue. Apparently, not everything our heroes did to their little ship was "public knowledge" - indeed, even the ambitious, unscrupulous and high-ranking Leyton could not dig up all of it in "Paradise Lost". And any ship built to the original Defiant class blueprints would have been a lemon, supposedly, as per "The Search". So, was the Sao Paulo better, worse or similar to the original?

What had O'Brien changed? Had he solved the original problems, or had he merely imposed flight envelope limitations so that the problems wouldn't manifest? Had he upgunned or downgunned the ship, upengined or downengined, tuned or detuned? Was the Sao Paulo a series production model, or simply the last of the original, failed and thus expendable prototypes?

Interesting questions. O'Brien makes a comment to Worf about the shield generators having been reconfigured, but nothing else is said about changes or upgrades to the vessel. We never hear of problems with the Sao Paulo, but she appears on screen only in the finale after being introduced in "The Dogs of War." It's possible any noted problems were sorted out during the vessel's shakedown cruise after the war was over, but there's no on-screen evidence either way.

--Sran

 

[kgartm1185]

Re: What is the strongest ship in the Federation fleet in the Dominion

Sisko choosing a defiant was out of self-preservation.

Except that there's no evidence whatsoever that he actually chose the vessel. He got what was available. We have no way of knowing whether he actually selected Sao Paulo from a list of ready-made ships.

--Sran

There's no evidence whatsoever that he "got what was available", either.

 

[Dukhat]

Re: What is the strongest ship in the Federation fleet in the Dominion

Sisko choosing a defiant was out of self-preservation.

Except that there's no evidence whatsoever that he actually chose the vessel. He got what was available. We have no way of knowing whether he actually selected Sao Paulo from a list of ready-made ships.

--Sran

There's no evidence whatsoever that he "got what was available", either.

You mean other than that there was a war on and Sisko probably didn't have the luxury to pick and choose the style of ship for his next command?

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

Re: What is the strongest ship in the Federation fleet in the Dominion

There's no evidence whatsoever that he "got what was available", either.

Wrong (again). Sisko received the Sao Paulo; therefore, it can be inferred that that Sao Paulo was available. Otherwise, he would not have received it. This is supported by on-screen events. What's not clear is whether he actually asked for the ship. But how did I know this would be too complicated for you?

--Sran

 

[Melakon]

Re: What is the strongest ship in the Federation fleet in the Dominion

. . .So, was the Sao Paulo better, worse or similar to the original?

What had O'Brien changed? Had he solved the original problems, or had he merely imposed flight envelope limitations so that the problems wouldn't manifest? Had he upgunned or downgunned the ship, upengined or downengined, tuned or detuned? Was the Sao Paulo a series production model, or simply the last of the original, failed and thus expendable prototypes?

Timo Saloniemi

I always assumed that information about any upgrades O'Brien made to Defiant's systems were forwarded to Starfleet, so that other ships of its class could be modified. This would also to apply to Scott, LaForge, Torres, and Tucker in terms of their ships (though Torres is the exception, until contact was re-established with Alpha Quadrant).

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

Re: What is the strongest ship in the Federation fleet in the Dominion

I always assumed that information about any upgrades O'Brien made to Defiant's systems were forwarded to Starfleet, so that other ships of its class could be modified. This would also to apply to Scott, LaForge, Torres, and Tucker in terms of their ships (though Torres is the exception, until contact was re-established with Alpha Quadrant).

Except that there's dialogue in "Paradise Lost" that contradicts this. Captain Benteen says, "We've been unable to stop the Defiant. Someone has equipped her with ablative armor and neglected to inform Starfleet Command."

It's possible O'Brien eventually filed a report on the upgrades, but if he did, it was a while after they were made.

--Sran

 

[Melakon]

Re: What is the strongest ship in the Federation fleet in the Dominion

. . .Except that there's dialogue in "Paradise Lost" that contradicts this. . .

This is why I shouldn't post in DS9 forum, I only have Season 7 and a handful of other episodes.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

Re: What is the strongest ship in the Federation fleet in the Dominion

Except that there's no evidence whatsoever that he actually chose the vessel. He got what was available. We have no way of knowing whether he actually selected Sao Paulo from a list of ready-made ships.

--Sran

There's no evidence whatsoever that he "got what was available", either.

You mean other than that there was a war on and Sisko probably didn't have the luxury to pick and choose the style of ship for his next command?

1 - talk about an irrelevant detail to discuss. Either Sisko had a choice and choose a defiant (probable), or he would have chosen a defiant if given a choice:
2 - Sisko chose the defiant in 'the search' - and then he could most definitely choose his ship. Defiant's performance was excellent throughout the war. Ross gave the ship to Sisko not as ~'that's all we have', but as ~'it's christmas - here's something you want'; Sisko behaved pleased and not surprised.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

Re: What is the strongest ship in the Federation fleet in the Dominion

2 - Sisko chose the defiant in 'the search' - and then he could most definitely choose his ship.

Different circumstances. When Sisko asked for the Defiant before "The Search," the ship was an unfinished and largely untested battle cruiser (recall that the project was abandoned by Starfleet before Sisko revived it). The vessel was something of a lemon and was not highly regarded by Starfleet. Sisko got the Defiant not because he had the authority to choose his own ship, but because he had the virtue of wanting a ship that no one else did.

As you pointed out, the Defiant performed well while stationed at DS9 both before and during the Dominion War. As such, other vessels of the same class were put into production because Starfleet recognized the value of having ships exclusively devoted to combat available for use. The Valiant was used as a training ship for cadets; the Sao Paulo was built, as well.

When the Defiant was lost, Ross told Sisko he'd find another ship for him, but he didn't specify when or what type of ship it would be. That DS9 received another Defiant-class vessel may have been the result of Sisko asking for it, though there's no evidence suggesting anything like this took place. Dax herself said that she didn't even realize another Defiant-class vessel would be in the mix (though she was absent for much of the intervening time period). OTOH, it may just have been a huge coincidence. The war was still going on, so it's not as though Sisko had time to think it over once a new ship was available.

--Sran

 

[Timo]

Re: What is the strongest ship in the Federation fleet in the Dominion

It's not as if Starfleet would have benefited much from giving their best ship type to Sisko - a homebody who was supposed to be guarding DS9 and would become a liability to Federation defenses if tempted to go gallivanting around in a powerful offensive unit...

OTOH, there would have been definite benefits to giving Sisko and his crew a ship maximally similar to what they had before. Less time spent learning the ropes, better match to the already well-established tactics and practices, you name it.

I guess Sisko would have had the pull to get some other type of ship in more peaceful times, what with him being an important element in the political struggle to secure Bajor and its wormhole for the Federation. In war, he was a much smaller player: an honorary fleet commander in certain battles relating to his home turf, but mostly an idler in a quiet little corner of the overall war theater.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dukhat]

Re: What is the strongest ship in the Federation fleet in the Dominion

talk about an irrelevant detail to discuss.

Please explain to me how not being able to pick and choose your own ship during wartime is an irrelevant detail to discuss.

Sisko chose the defiant in 'the search'

So? How does that have any bearing on him getting the second Defiant?

Ross gave the ship to Sisko not as ~'that's all we have', but as ~'it's christmas - here's something you want'; Sisko behaved pleased and not surprised.

Evidence for this in an episode?

 

[kgartm1185]

Re: What is the strongest ship in the Federation fleet in the Dominion

talk about an irrelevant detail to discuss.

Please explain to me how not being able to pick and choose your own ship during wartime is an irrelevant detail to discuss.

Sisko chose the defiant in 'the search'

So? How does that have any bearing on him getting the second Defiant?

Ross gave the ship to Sisko not as ~'that's all we have', but as ~'it's christmas - here's something you want'; Sisko behaved pleased and not surprised.

Evidence for this in an episode?

I not sure if it was evidence but I think the episode the poster is talking about is in season 7 called "The Dogs of War".

 

[Roboturner913]

Re: What is the strongest ship in the Federation fleet in the Dominion

Except that there's dialogue in "Paradise Lost" that contradicts this. Captain Benteen says, "We've been unable to stop the Defiant. Someone has equipped her with ablative armor and neglected to inform Starfleet Command."

Sisko hints at the Defiant's secretive nature in "The Search":

"Offically, she's an escort. Unofficially, the Defiant's a warship. Nothing more, nothing less."

Shouldn't be a big surprise that Starfleet didn't necessarily want word out that they had built a ship to be a straight-up brawler, not to mention it had a cloaking device too.

It's very possible the ship was very top-secret until "Paradise Lost" at which point the beans were spilled. Leyton was not a full admiral and wouldn't necessarily have the highest security clearance.

 

[kgartm1185]

Re: What is the strongest ship in the Federation fleet in the Dominion

Except that there's dialogue in "Paradise Lost" that contradicts this. Captain Benteen says, "We've been unable to stop the Defiant. Someone has equipped her with ablative armor and neglected to inform Starfleet Command."

Sisko hints at the Defiant's secretive nature in "The Search":

"Offically, she's an escort. Unofficially, the Defiant's a warship. Nothing more, nothing less."

Shouldn't be a big surprise that Starfleet didn't necessarily want word out that they had built a ship to be a straight-up brawler, not to mention it had a cloaking device too.

It's very possible the ship was very top-secret until "Paradise Lost" at which point the beans were spilled. Leyton was not a full admiral and wouldn't necessarily have the highest security clearance.

If the Defiant is unofficial considered a warship, shouldn't the Galaxy class, Nebula, class, Akira class, Prometheus class, and Sovereign class starships be, too?

 

[Timo]

Re: What is the strongest ship in the Federation fleet in the Dominion

Probably. The "I thought Starfleet didn't believe in warships?" quip by Kira was always undeserving of an answer, containing in itself the implication that Starfleet has plenty of warships it shies away from properly designating as such...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[TheRoyalFamily]

Re: What is the strongest ship in the Federation fleet in the Dominion

I think the Prometheus acquitted itself rather well, taking only minimal damage while fighting a small fleet of both Romulans and Feddies (including one Defiant-class!), crewed only by two bumbling medical holograms

Sisko hints at the Defiant's secretive nature in "The Search":

"Offically, she's an escort. Unofficially, the Defiant's a warship. Nothing more, nothing less."

Shouldn't be a big surprise that Starfleet didn't necessarily want word out that they had built a ship to be a straight-up brawler, not to mention it had a cloaking device too.

If the Defiant is unofficial considered a warship, shouldn't the Galaxy class, Nebula, class, Akira class, Prometheus class, and Sovereign class starships be, too?

The Defiant was designed as a warship, and only a warship. Everything else you mentioned had other roles, ones which could lead them to having to defend themselves (this goes triple for the more exploring types); since Starfleet seems to value their ships and crews, they would want them to be able to defend themselves as well as possible. Even the designation of "escort" implies a defensive role, and not even necessarily a highly-armed one (defending freighters or VIP's from pirates, etc). But warship implies offensive power, and no other purpose.