IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

[rahullak]

^Of course what Kira did was terrorism, and she freely admitted it on many occasions. Terrorism doesn't just mean "something the evil enemy does." It's a term that has a specific, objective definition, regardless of how pundits and politicians abuse it as a term of emotional rhetoric. Terrorism is is the use of random or excessive violence to induce fear and despair in a population in order to pressure them into abandoning an occupation, war, or other policy. It's generally a tactic used by a weaker group against a more powerful group that can't be defeated by force alone and thus must be demoralized to the point that its own leaders or populace decide to cut their losses and retreat. Which is exactly what happened in the Cardassian Occupation of Bajor.

In Khan's case, he used the tactics of terrorism for goals that were not actually terroristic. He bombed the archive in London, not to terrorize the populace, but to destroy the secret Section 31 facility it contained, and to lure the Starfleet leadership to a specific place so he could strike at them. Terrorism was just the cover he used, the feint that disguised his true intentions. This is something we've seen done in many movies, such as Die Hard.

I'm not disputing that there's an objective definition of terrorism. Yes there is. But we all know in reality that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. And in reality all we have are subjective interpretations of events when those events are not hard science experiments. No one has the all-seeing eye of God to have a completely objective view of events.

I'm only saying that the Bajoran government did not throw Kira into prison because they did not consider Kira's actions as terroristic. Or if they did, they pardoned it because it was in their just cause of freedom.

And Starfleet and the Federation do consider bombing their archives and killing people as acts of terrorism. I'll concede that we may interpret Khan's acts as non-terroristic but clearly militant, since we know his ultimate aims.

 

[Christopher]

I'm only saying that the Bajoran government did not throw Kira into prison because they did not consider Kira's actions as terroristic. Or if they did, they pardoned it because it was in their just cause of freedom.

More likely the latter. There's plenty of precedent for occupied and oppressed populations using terrorism as a means to achieve their freedom -- e.g. the Russian and French resistance movements vs. Nazi occupiers in WWII. It can be understood that these things are necessary evils in a time of war or occupation, without the need to whitewash the brutal reality of it by changing the label after the fact. On the contrary, it's necessary to be honest about the "evil" part of "necessary evil" so that you don't get in the habit and keep doing it after the need has ended (like the Kohn Ma did, for instance).

And again, Khan's actions were retaliation for Marcus's criminal actions. Marcus was ultimately the one who provoked everything that happened. He and Section 31 created the situation that led to Khan's violence. They found and awoke Khan, they made him mad, and they created the technologies he used to strike back. I just do not comprehend why you're trying to blame Kirk for Khan's acts and completely ignoring Marcus's far greater culpability.

 

[rahullak]

And again, Khan's actions were retaliation for Marcus's criminal actions. Marcus was ultimately the one who provoked everything that happened. He and Section 31 created the situation that led to Khan's violence. They found and awoke Khan, they made him mad, and they created the technologies he used to strike back. I just do not comprehend why you're trying to blame Kirk for Khan's acts and completely ignoring Marcus's far greater culpability.

I apologize, I jumped in between you and Cadet49 and so it wasn't clear what I was saying. I'm not ignoring Marcus' culpability. Blackmailing Khan into doing his dirty deeds is obviously illegal and immoral. Not to mention building a fleet in secret and attempting to precipitate war.

But, all that does not absolve Khan. Ultimately, it was he who chose to act in the manner that he has instead of finding a more peaceful way to settle the situation. This speaks to what he was capable of, the depths to which he could plunge and his dangerous nature. Kirk knew this. Note, I'm not blaming Kirk. He took a big risk in trusting Khan for however brief a time or to whatever small degree because hey, it's nuKirk: Leaps without looking and goes with instinct.

And also, it serves the needs of the movie makers to have more fun, action and drama rather than having nuKirk choose to inform Starfleet through New Vulcan or whatever other option he supposedly had.

 

[NotLKH]

lol...you mentioning nuKirk gave me an image of Richard Dawson battling Khan with dueling britishisms!

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I'm only saying that the Bajoran government did not throw Kira into prison because they did not consider Kira's actions as terroristic.

Indeed, that provisional government almost certainly consisted largely OF former resistance fighters. Of course they're going to give one of their own a free pass.

And as Odo would later say (after Ibudan is released in 'A Man Alone' after serving time), "Killing Cardassians doesn't seem to be much of a crime these days".

 

[The Wormhole]

With regards to the first issue of 'After Darkness',

Spoiler: the last page of After Darkness #1

who do you guys think the female Starfleet officer/Section 31 agent who shows up on Romulus is? Could it be someone from canon or is it likely to be a new character?

Spoiler: speculation

Don't know who it could be from canon. There are no canon female characters from the 23rd century who could be with Section 31. And the prominent women from the movies are already accounted for. But then there must be a reason for keeping the character a secret. Just tossing shit out there without thinking it through, maybe it's Mudd?

 

[BillJ]

With regards to the first issue of 'After Darkness',

Spoiler: the last page of After Darkness #1

who do you guys think the female Starfleet officer/Section 31 agent who shows up on Romulus is? Could it be someone from canon or is it likely to be a new character?

Spoiler: speculation

Don't know who it could be from canon. There are no canon female characters from the 23rd century who could be with Section 31. And the prominent women from the movies are already accounted for. But then there must be a reason for keeping the character a secret. Just tossing shit out there without thinking it through, maybe it's Mudd?

Or...

Spoiler: Speculation

The Romulan Commader from The Enterprise Incident is actually a Section 31 agent.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Spoiler: No

Under Marcus's orders, with a pretty big gun held to his head. Kirk doesn't know what Khan would or wouldn't do when acting independently.

No, no...

Spoiler: Harrison

Harrison was not acting under orders when he bombed the archives. He told Kirk he was acting in Vengeance for believing Marcus had killed his crew, so he acted to avenge them. So, he was acting on his own, as far as Kirk knows at that point.

I don't buy that. It doesn't make sense. Why would Harrison go to Qo'noS on his own with no way back? Why would he abandon his "family" with no way to get back to them?

Here's how I read the film.

Spoiler: Motivations...

Admiral Marcus had a plan to instigate a war with the Klingons. Harrison recruiting Mickey the Idiot to bomb London was the part of the plan to make it look like Harrison had gone rogue. Harrison's attack on Starfleet Headquarters was a false flag operation at Marcus' behest to make it appear that Harrison had really gone rogue. Harrison was meant to escape, his transwarp device was meant to be found, the trail of evidence was meant to point to Harrison on Qo'noS. At that point in the film, Harrison was acting under Marcus' direction. However, none of that becomes obvious until Harrison changes sides when he realizes that Marcus has betrayed him when Sulu threatens him with the Corpsicle Torpedoes.

And I don't think you can trust what Harrison says. Of course he's going to tell Kirk a story, to play Kirk against Marcus. Harrison needs Kirk to believe that he had turned on Marcus earlier so Kirk doesn't think about how Harrison's plan with the torpedoes was supposed to work. Clearly, Harrison had intended for them to be loaded onto the Vengeance. When they weren't, Harrison needed to get onto the Vengeance, take the ship, then take the torpedoes back by force. To his eternal luck, Kirk has a need to get aboard the Vengeance as well.

In short, nothing about Harrison's actions makes sense if he was not acting under Marcus' orders until Kirk arrived on Qo'noS.

 

[rahullak]

Spoiler: No

Under Marcus's orders, with a pretty big gun held to his head. Kirk doesn't know what Khan would or wouldn't do when acting independently.

No, no...

Spoiler: Harrison

Harrison was not acting under orders when he bombed the archives. He told Kirk he was acting in Vengeance for believing Marcus had killed his crew, so he acted to avenge them. So, he was acting on his own, as far as Kirk knows at that point.

I don't buy that. It doesn't make sense. Why would Harrison go to Qo'noS on his own with no way back? Why would he abandon his "family" with no way to get back to them?

Here's how I read the film.

Spoiler: Motivations...

Admiral Marcus had a plan to instigate a war with the Klingons. Harrison recruiting Mickey the Idiot to bomb London was the part of the plan to make it look like Harrison had gone rogue. Harrison's attack on Starfleet Headquarters was a false flag operation at Marcus' behest to make it appear that Harrison had really gone rogue. Harrison was meant to escape, his transwarp device was meant to be found, the trail of evidence was meant to point to Harrison on Qo'noS. At that point in the film, Harrison was acting under Marcus' direction. However, none of that becomes obvious until Harrison changes sides when he realizes that Marcus has betrayed him when Sulu threatens him with the Corpsicle Torpedoes.

And I don't think you can trust what Harrison says. Of course he's going to tell Kirk a story, to play Kirk against Marcus. Harrison needs Kirk to believe that he had turned on Marcus earlier so Kirk doesn't think about how Harrison's plan with the torpedoes was supposed to work. Clearly, Harrison had intended for them to be loaded onto the Vengeance. When they weren't, Harrison needed to get onto the Vengeance, take the ship, then take the torpedoes back by force. To his eternal luck, Kirk has a need to get aboard the Vengeance as well.

In short, nothing about Harrison's actions makes sense if he was not acting under Marcus' orders until Kirk arrived on Qo'noS.

That's a possibility that I had not considered.

Spoiler: Possibility

However, it is also possible that Khan was acting on his own when he attacked the meeting and transported to Qo'nos. Why Qo'nos? Because he thought Starfleet would not follow him to Klingon space and precipitate a war. And he wasn't abandoning his "family". He was escaping as a last resort, when Kirk brought down his craft. He could have been planning to return for his "family" later.

And so far as Kirk understood, Khan was acting on his own in either case.

 

[Christopher]

Remember Kirk's line about how it felt they were helping Khan instead of the reverse? I'm sure that even if Khan were nominally following Marcus's instructions, it was for his own purposes.

 

[Therin of Andor]

My understanding, on opening night, rightly or wrongly, was that

Spoiler: Harrison's alternate scheme

involved him turning up on the Klingon homeworld, organizing to have his 72 followers softland via torpedo tube in the isolated province, take over the Klingon homeworld and then actually lead the war against Marcus and the UFP. Instead of Marcus turning up with the torpedoes, it was Kirk. Khan had originally hidden his people in the torpedo tubes at some point (ie. from Marcus), but I thought he might have, at one point, suggested to Marcus that they use the 72 to occupy Q'onos, and now Harrison was double (or triple) crossing him.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

My understanding, on opening night, rightly or wrongly, was that

Spoiler: Harrison's alternate scheme

involved him turning up on the Klingon homeworld, organizing to have his 72 followers softland via torpedo tube in the isolated province, take over the Klingon homeworld and then actually lead the war against Marcus and the UFP. Instead of Marcus turning up with the torpedoes, it was Kirk. Khan had originally hidden his people in the torpedo tubes at some point (ie. from Marcus), but I thought he might have, at one point, suggested to Marcus that they use the 72 to occupy Q'onos, and now Harrison was double (or triple) crossing him.

It's unfortunate; the film doesn't tell us what Harrison's plan was, leaving us to infer a plan based on hints. I feel a bit like Admiral Picard here, trying to understand the Romulans' "move, countermove, guile, and deceit."

Spoiler: The torpedoes...

I suspect the torpedoes were intended for the Vengeance. Then, when aboard the Vengeance (perhaps there were proximity detectors) the Corpsicles would wake, they would take over the ship, and they do whatever. Harrison worked on both the torpedoes and the Vengeance, after all.

 

[Enterpriserules]

With regards to the first issue of 'After Darkness',

Spoiler: the last page of After Darkness #1

who do you guys think the female Starfleet officer/Section 31 agent who shows up on Romulus is? Could it be someone from canon or is it likely to be a new character?

I think it is Mekenna from the Sulu issue

 

[The Wormhole]

With regards to the first issue of 'After Darkness',

Spoiler: the last page of After Darkness #1

who do you guys think the female Starfleet officer/Section 31 agent who shows up on Romulus is? Could it be someone from canon or is it likely to be a new character?

I think it is Mekenna from the Sulu issue

Interesting thought, but I don't know. She wasn't really villainous, just a hotheaded youth in need of life experience.

 

[Enterpriserules]

With regards to the first issue of 'After Darkness',

Spoiler: the last page of After Darkness #1

who do you guys think the female Starfleet officer/Section 31 agent who shows up on Romulus is? Could it be someone from canon or is it likely to be a new character?

I think it is Mekenna from the Sulu issue

Interesting thought, but I don't know. She wasn't really villainous, just a hotheaded youth in need of life experience.

Just seemed like something a Red Squad person would do, join Section 31 because they like being in the exclusive clubs

 

[The Wormhole]

Well, I can't argue with that logic. Still, seems a bit of a jump.

Spoiler: might be considered a spoiler for #21

Snooty popular girl on campus to plotting genocide with the Romulan Senate in less than five years

 

[Enterpriserules]

Well, I can't argue with that logic. Still, seems a bit of a jump.

Spoiler: might be considered a spoiler for #21

Snooty popular girl on campus to plotting genocide with the Romulan Seante in less than five years

Just a guess. I am finding that they do seem to pull things from previous issues, so that was my first thought when I saw it was a woman but they didn't show us her face.

 

[JoeZhang]

Well, I can't argue with that logic. Still, seems a bit of a jump.

Spoiler: might be considered a spoiler for #21

Snooty popular girl on campus to plotting genocide with the Romulan Seante in less than five years

Hey it's a universe where you can get the keys to the flagship of the federation as a failing cadet.

 

[Villordsutch]

Just a quick note I reviewed Ongoing #15 here - http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=211918

 

[Christopher]

^You mean #20, right?