^In Lord Garth's case, yes.
STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]
- Thread starter Agent Richard07
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I've just seen the film for the third time. All of my friends know me as the big Star Trek fan, so I've been getting invited to this one a lot... The film really stands up to repeated viewings, but that didn't deter me from trying to find multiple plot holes and ways the film could have improved.
I'll point out a few, and also muse on some things discussed in this massive thread:
1) What really sticks out to me on this viewing is Scotty's line. "One day! I've been off this ship one day!"
Did we really need to have the need to have the whole adventure take place in a 24 hour span? This makes the voyage to Qo'nos implausible, which of course it is, and diminishes sense of vastness of outer space. But it also is a missed opportunity.
There's a scene that just before Spock confronts Carol Marcus about her identity that shows the Enterprise at warp which could have made it an indeterminable amount of time. It would have been an ideal moment for a Captain's log. Something to the effect of : "We are enroute to Kronos and will reach Klingon space by tomorrow. The crew is preparing for the mission with focus and professionalism... " etc. It could have provided a nice act break and the scene with Spock and Marcus could have followed seamlessly.
Scotty's line could have been changed to "One week, one week I've been off this ship!"
It also would have provided Scotty with more time to learn the Vengeance's systems and allow him to sabatoge it to the degree that he did more plausibly. I don't think it would have detracted anything from the plot, but would have closed some plot holes nicely.
2) Carol Marcus did not say "Transwarp"... she said "My father has been developing advanced warp technologies." Just to clear that up if it hasn't been done already. Seriously though, as others have pointed out. If they had stayed at Warp .000000001 second longer they would have overshot Earth by millions of miles. LOL. I really don't have any explanation for that. Why not just have them arrive at Earth, and have the Vengeance attack them as they attempt to hail Starfleet?
3) If the Vengeance could beam Carol Marcus off the Enterprise when it had its shields up, why did Khan need to argue with Spock over the torpedoes? How did the Vengeance beam Marcus off the Enterprise with its shields up anyway?
4) I thought Uhura's confrontation with the Klingons was brilliant--up to the point where the officer grabbed her neck and pulled the knife. Her appeal to their honor REALLY made me appreciate her as a character and the writers understanding of Klingons. Then they made the Klingon guy a typical brute. The scene could have been even more effective if he did clutch her neck and say, "We'll find this human you are looking for and teach him the price of violating our territory, just as we will teach you." and then have Khan go apes--t on them. At least that way, it could have seemed as if Uhura MIGHT have been able to talk her way out of it, rather than her plan falling apart only to be saved by the sheer luck of Khan's interference.
5) How does 1 photon torpedo Destroy General Chang's BoP in ST6, but 72 photon torpedoes blowing up INSIDE the Vengeance only "disable its weapons systems"? That thing should have blown to Kingdom Come. I don't really know an elegant way to have fixed this in the script so that the Vengeance could still be piloted to collision course with the surface... Maybe Bones was only able to arm 3-4 of the Warheads in time? Even so, an ordinance explosion of that magnitude within the hull still takes most ships down.
6) I feel like one line added to the scene with Bones discovering the Tribble was alive could have fixed a loose end. I discussed Khan's blood with a friend and we both wondered why they couldn't have used the blood of one of the 72 other superhumans they had on board? We both agreed that perhaps the blood of those still cryogenically frozen wasn't viable to use in a serum and would take too long to thaw out. An additional line from Bones to that effect would have been helpful.
7) The scene where the matter-anti-matter injectors are misaligned and Scotty forbids Kirk that they can't open the compartment or they'll both be killed before they make the climb... for some reason, in this latest viewing reminded me of "Thine Own Self" where Riker tells Troi, "My first duty is to the ship..." I wondered why Scotty didn't attempt to enter the core in an effort to save the Enterprise from certain destruction... and why Kirk didn't order him to...
Now to me, Kirk's heroism in that scene(the beauty of the set, the raw physicality of it, his fear in the face of certain death, which he FINALLY felt) was the best moment of the film, and one of the best moments in Star Trek. Still, I wonder if I would have liked it better if Scotty had said "I have to make the climb." and Kirk says his line and knocks him out.
I enjoyed the movie immensely, and these plot holes are more little annoyances than major problems in the plot. I still feel like Marcus's corruption and outright disregard for his own people was the biggest issue with the story.
I'll point out a few, and also muse on some things discussed in this massive thread:
1) What really sticks out to me on this viewing is Scotty's line. "One day! I've been off this ship one day!"
Did we really need to have the need to have the whole adventure take place in a 24 hour span? This makes the voyage to Qo'nos implausible, which of course it is, and diminishes sense of vastness of outer space. But it also is a missed opportunity.
There's a scene that just before Spock confronts Carol Marcus about her identity that shows the Enterprise at warp which could have made it an indeterminable amount of time. It would have been an ideal moment for a Captain's log. Something to the effect of : "We are enroute to Kronos and will reach Klingon space by tomorrow. The crew is preparing for the mission with focus and professionalism... " etc. It could have provided a nice act break and the scene with Spock and Marcus could have followed seamlessly.
Scotty's line could have been changed to "One week, one week I've been off this ship!"
It also would have provided Scotty with more time to learn the Vengeance's systems and allow him to sabatoge it to the degree that he did more plausibly. I don't think it would have detracted anything from the plot, but would have closed some plot holes nicely.
2) Carol Marcus did not say "Transwarp"... she said "My father has been developing advanced warp technologies." Just to clear that up if it hasn't been done already. Seriously though, as others have pointed out. If they had stayed at Warp .000000001 second longer they would have overshot Earth by millions of miles. LOL. I really don't have any explanation for that. Why not just have them arrive at Earth, and have the Vengeance attack them as they attempt to hail Starfleet?
3) If the Vengeance could beam Carol Marcus off the Enterprise when it had its shields up, why did Khan need to argue with Spock over the torpedoes? How did the Vengeance beam Marcus off the Enterprise with its shields up anyway?
4) I thought Uhura's confrontation with the Klingons was brilliant--up to the point where the officer grabbed her neck and pulled the knife. Her appeal to their honor REALLY made me appreciate her as a character and the writers understanding of Klingons. Then they made the Klingon guy a typical brute. The scene could have been even more effective if he did clutch her neck and say, "We'll find this human you are looking for and teach him the price of violating our territory, just as we will teach you." and then have Khan go apes--t on them. At least that way, it could have seemed as if Uhura MIGHT have been able to talk her way out of it, rather than her plan falling apart only to be saved by the sheer luck of Khan's interference.
5) How does 1 photon torpedo Destroy General Chang's BoP in ST6, but 72 photon torpedoes blowing up INSIDE the Vengeance only "disable its weapons systems"? That thing should have blown to Kingdom Come. I don't really know an elegant way to have fixed this in the script so that the Vengeance could still be piloted to collision course with the surface... Maybe Bones was only able to arm 3-4 of the Warheads in time? Even so, an ordinance explosion of that magnitude within the hull still takes most ships down.
6) I feel like one line added to the scene with Bones discovering the Tribble was alive could have fixed a loose end. I discussed Khan's blood with a friend and we both wondered why they couldn't have used the blood of one of the 72 other superhumans they had on board? We both agreed that perhaps the blood of those still cryogenically frozen wasn't viable to use in a serum and would take too long to thaw out. An additional line from Bones to that effect would have been helpful.
7) The scene where the matter-anti-matter injectors are misaligned and Scotty forbids Kirk that they can't open the compartment or they'll both be killed before they make the climb... for some reason, in this latest viewing reminded me of "Thine Own Self" where Riker tells Troi, "My first duty is to the ship..." I wondered why Scotty didn't attempt to enter the core in an effort to save the Enterprise from certain destruction... and why Kirk didn't order him to...
Now to me, Kirk's heroism in that scene(the beauty of the set, the raw physicality of it, his fear in the face of certain death, which he FINALLY felt) was the best moment of the film, and one of the best moments in Star Trek. Still, I wonder if I would have liked it better if Scotty had said "I have to make the climb." and Kirk says his line and knocks him out.
I enjoyed the movie immensely, and these plot holes are more little annoyances than major problems in the plot. I still feel like Marcus's corruption and outright disregard for his own people was the biggest issue with the story.
5) Chang's ship was a little Bird of Prey. The Vengeance was about 1450 meters long. You probably could have parked Chang's ship in that hanger Scotty ran across (which IIRC, was hanger #17 of who knows how many
)
Although yes, Trek weapons have always been massively underpowered in practice. They're meant to be antimatter warheads.
)Although yes, Trek weapons have always been massively underpowered in practice. They're meant to be antimatter warheads.
Seeing it three times, perhaps you can refresh my memory, but weren't the Enterprise shields basically knocked out or severely weakened at that point ?
Remember, those aren't TNG-era torpedoes. I think they were special torpedoes in the sense that they were stealth, but maybe they didn't have much yield.
Khan's the leader for a reason: maybe his blood's the only one that'll work. I still don't think they had time to thaw another Augment to have a look.
Fair enough. But since you took the time to reason out your problems with it I'll offer some thoughts of these points, whether a reply is coming or not!
A fair point. I think it may speak to how intelligent Khan really is. He caught up pretty damn fast in regards to technology, and physically he dispatched the Klingons of this film in short order.
I would imagine Khan was just one of many coals Section 31 had in its fires, and the fact that after thawing out, he so quickly was able to design the Vengeance's systems and the new torpedoes meant he was a home run as far as being a covert asset... until he got all terrorist-y.
The Khan we saw in Space Seed was greeted by a cordial Kirk who literally handed him the Enterprise technical manuals and a historian who was ready to drop her panties at the first sight of him. I'd imagine he felt supremely confident he could take over Earth again in five minutes after meeting that bunch.
The Khan in this timeline met Admiral Marcus, who was probably pretty damn ruthless and Khan probably figured he was a guy to be reckoned with. I got the sense however even in helping Marcus he was biding his time until the Vengeance was ready. Scotty said, "I thought he was helping us." Kirk replied, "I get the feeling we're helping him."
Lt. Marla McGivers going completely gaga over Khan and betraying her uniform and her crew over a day-old sexual attraction is true sexism. We contextualize it because of the era. But re-watching "Space Seed" in anticipation of this film was embarrassing for that reason.
Lt. Marcus in this film is introduced as a Doctorate in Physics. Right of the bat that's a positive example of a woman in science. She showed an independent streak--her disobeying orders and regulations was done to get to the bottom of a plot which by instinct she knew was trouble. She stood up publicly to her very powerful and authoritative father in an effort to save her ship. I found her and Uhura both to have had strong characteristics and qualities. Her scream was seeing her father's skull crushed. Seems understandable to me.
I don't really agree at all with the criticisms of this being a sexist film. Yes, the underwear scene was certainly gratuitous. But it was a two second gag to show Kirk's dumbstruck expression.
You're right. Over-reach on the writer's part. But they did reinforce the notion both with the little girl in the beginning and the Tribble. This was one of the backbones of the film's plot. It was flimsy, but threaded with the other points-- I personally let it slide.
In... well, ONE of the timelines that lead to the Star Trek universe the Eugenics Wars are followed up by a Third World War, a nuclear third world war. When you blow up the world, your previous judicial proceedings lose some of their legitimacy. It's hard to carry out a sentence delivered by a government that no longer exists. I'd say when the crew of the SS Botany Bay was revived, they had clean records. At least that's my opinion.
Agreed. Why not just beam down an entire security team to go after Khan in the first place instead of just Spock alone?
Ugh. Where were the sensors on the battle next to the moon? Where were the Klingon sensors detecting the Enterprise had entered their space? Where were the sensors in a Section 31 facility showing a highly reactive metal was on that dude's ring?
Apparently Earth and Kronos have no sensors in this timeline. I don't remember sensors in ToS being so non-existent.
Of course, there was no armed Combat Air Patrol above the Pentagon on 9/11. The F-16 taking off at Andrews supposedly didn't have any ammunition and had orders to crash into United 97 to stop it. Governments sometimes do get a false sense of security around their military headquarters.
Rumor had it that JJ Abrams tried to get Benecio Del Toro... When that fell through he just figured he'd get a damn fine actor and let him re imagine the role. I feel like Benedict Cumberbatch did a fine job.
At this point the Enterprise shields were still at 100%. The Enterprise was only attacked after it went to warp. The Vengeance knocked the Enterprise out of warp in front of Luna with its barrage of torpedoes. Up until that point the only damage to the Enterprise was the sabotage to the warp core. Kirk even tells Sulu just before he exits the bridge, "Keep those shields up!"
Just like in the original timeline. Khan learns to man the Reliant pretty damn quickly.
Really ? I was under the impression she was beamed onto the Vengeance _after_ the Enterprise got most of its damage. Carol didn't get to talk to her father until after 1701 dropped out of warp, and the Vengeance was disabled temporarily right after that. And after that Kirk and Khan fly through debris from the battle. I'm kinda confused, here.
I agree its fantastic. The Klingons being well menacing and murderous. The movie had lots of things going for it - love, bravery, sacrifice, mercy, treachery, weird Vulcan rituals, Sarek showing that he actually loved his son for once.
Of course it had its problems. What Star Trek movies didn't?
I'll just comment on two of the following:
In regards to Kirk he saved planet Earth. None of the other bozos in Starfleet did it. None of the other experienced captains stood up the Adm. Marcus and tried to stop Khan or even set up a defense grid around the planet. If someone saved my planet I'd give them a ship if they wanted it.
The admiralty problems with Kirk was the 'breaking' of the PD in the idiot instance where a planet would be destroyed without interference. Like the inhabitants of the planet would be better of dead than seeing a big spaceship rising out of the water. They didn't care about his womanising. They didn't care about it in TOS. They didn't care when Riker did it.
In regards to Spock. I think he gave Pike 'lip' because his loyalty had transferred to Kirk. Perhaps Kirk didn't realise it but Pike did. That was probably one of the reasons Pike didn't want Spock as his 1st officer.
The novel stated that they only armed one torpedo and that Khan had scanned a few but not all of them. So Spock was playing odds that the one torpedo armed would not get scanned. (I might need to re-read the chapter for more specifics).
Chang's BoP was hit by at least five torpedoes (the homing torpedo first and then several others when the Enterprise and Excelsior went all Django Unchained on it) before it was completely destroyed, IIRC.
Plus, Chang's BoP is the size of a wart on the ass of the Vengeance, and is designed to be a stealthy lightly armored scout rather than a heavily armed and armored battleship.
Also, the torpedoes did significantly more than just damage the weapons systems. The ship was going down.
As was said before, Chang's BOP took 5 or 6. It only took 1 to kill him. I think the single torpedo kill of a BOP you're thinking of is in Generations.
Someone said maybe only one or 2 detonated. But if these use matter/antimatter, which I'm not sure if they ever said they are photon torpedoes, then they should have all gone off if they were armed. If memory serves, the cryo tubes replaced the fuel pod. I don't remember if the warhead was missing to. But even if it was only one, it was inside the unshielded engineering hull where there is a lot of antimatter. That should have destroyed the Vengeance.
I always pretend that what we're seeing in Generations is a bundle of torpedoes fired at once, since I hope Worf didn't catch a case of idiot from Riker and understands that firing a "spread of torpedoes" doesn't mean just firing one really slow and dramatic one.
The Enterprise-D can fire ten(?) torpedoes at once from a single tube and have them attack multiple targets, so maybe it can fire them all in one big bundle as a kind of super warhead too. The glowy spikey ball of death thingamajig seemed bigger than normal, and moved really sluggishly.
By the order presented I would assume it was when the warp core was not aligned and Kirk went into the chamber.
A minor thing I enjoyed was that the costumer did a fair recreation of McCoy's blue medical tunic from the series.
Fascinating screen name.
STID quoted a thirty year-old movie. Folks would do well to get over that.
Fascinating screen name.
STID quoted a thirty year-old movie. Folks would do well to get over that.
Play it again, Dennis.
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