STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

[BillJ]

I vaguely agree that it jumps from set piece to set piece and moves at such a pace a lot of the political and social commentary just gets lost in it.

But again, the rest of the Trek movies never let the plot get in the way at action...

The fact that he was an important ruler and the fact that he's 300 years out of his own time are just ignored.

This for example, I don't remember any of this from TWOK. He was just some bad ass dude with a vendetta. The whole review is pretty poor and I think he went into wanting to hate it, I think I saw him on some screenjunkies thing ragging on it before release. There is a portion of the fanbase who want to hate on it because its different - when its actually not that different other than being big budget.

When they first find Khan in TWOK, he gives us a quick glimpse into his background but then we're onto revenge.

 

[Phily B]

It's just silly to bring up as a criticism like many parts of his review, TWOK didn't recap Space Seed nor did it require it to; why on Earth would STID?! It's like people know the film is a Star Trek movie, so you have to compare to single TV episodes.

 

[Pauln6]

These movies have definitely lowered the bar unnecessarily low.

Star Trek set that bar in 1966 during "The Naked Time" when during a critical orbit both the Chief Engineer and his Assistant (the only two on duty mind you) left because they were both called to the bridge.

That and Engineering only has one door...

Lol - Naked Time might squeeze by on the notion that even if not obvious, those crewmen might have been affected by the virus. I do prefer to view TOS & TNG THROUGH THE PRISM OF THE TIMES THEY WERE MADE. That does make some elements look silly. I'm sure if they could have afforded to film in a brewery every week, they would have.

I agree with the comments about the difference between Kirk and Spock's solutions to the damaged engine. Spock, while not an engineer, has sufficient technical skill to effect repairs and greater resistance to radiation than the other engineers on hand. He is the logical choice for the task despite there being other engineers nearby.

Kirk's problem is that he promoted an ensign to chief engineer so they're all off doing something else... evacuating the ship maybe? And it really isn't clear why they have magical glass and inspired transporters but no radiation suits or robotic drones - technologies that we have in the 21st century already, along with greater equality of the sexes.

I can see why they needed Harrison. "Our people keep dying when fixing our engines. Please tell us what to do!" "Errr... make me bombs - and be quick about it."

 

[Opus]

Kirk is promoted from cadet to Captain against all common sense, in ST:09. Then demoted at the start of this film cause he's clearly not ready. But at the end of ST:ID, he was again in command. But in everything I've read, no where do I see he understands and accepts what he did was wrong. He simply gets rewarded for saving the day again.

And what exactly did Kirk do that saved the day?

 

[BillJ]

Star Trek is an incredible TV series and I've been watching it for as long as I can remember (1975 when I was 4). It's like a friend whose been with me my whole life, I honestly think it's the longest continual relationship I've had in my life.

But...

It is incredibly flawed. People tend to remember the good and forget the not-so-good which simply isn't fair to J.J. Abrams version.

Is Abrams version perfect? Hell no, not even close. An elderly Vulcan, who hasn't been in active service for a century flying such a critical mission. A beach ball full of Red Matter, enough to rearrange the universe sent along when a single drop will collapse a star. Cadet to Captain of the Flagship.

But, in 2009, I had fun with Star Trek for the first time in a very long time. Somewhere along the way those in charge of the franchise forgot it was suppose to be fun.

YMMV.

 

[Phily B]

Kirk's problem is that he promoted an ensign to chief engineer so they're all off doing something else... evacuating the ship maybe? And it really isn't clear why they have magical glass and inspired transporters but no radiation suits or robotic drones - technologies that we have in the 21st century already, along with greater equality of the sexes.

If there were radiation suits, he probably didn't have time to suit up. I doubt a radiation suit would've helped, even in TWOK Spock didn't bother with one did he? Everyone in engineering appeared to have one on, as far as I'm aware there has never been such a suit in Trek.

The Enterprise crew refused to evacuate, this was made clear when Spock gave the order to abandon ship. I'm not sure on your first point either, he had Scotty and the acting engineering officer at his disposal, would he have ordered them into the warp core to die?

 

[Count Zero]

I think in an earlier scene we see engineering staff wear suits but I'm not sure (I really need to see this movie again). But you're right that in TWOK Spock doesn't bother with a suit, either, he just takes a mask and gloves. I always took it to mean that it wouldn't have mattered, anyway. Scotty would have sent someone in or gone himself if a suit had been protection enough to survive.

But getting back to where this all started, Kirk is promoted from cadet to Captain against all common sense, in ST:09. Then demoted at the start of this film cause he's clearly not ready. But at the end of ST:ID, he was again in command. But in everything I've read, no where do I see he understands and accepts what he did was wrong. He simply gets rewarded for saving the day again.

He becomes Captain again halfway through the movie because Pike dies and Admiral Marcus sends him on the mission to kill Harrison/Khan, not because he saved the day.

What he did on Nibiru was against regulations and against the Prime Directive but was it morally wrong? After all, he saved a civilisation from extinction and the presence of the Enterprise was only revealed because he chose to save Spock instead of letting him die. That's very Kirk, I'd say. We saw Kirk go against the Prime Directive (as it was later interpreted, anyway) quite a couple of times in TOS.

As for self-reflection there is a poignant short scene between Kirk and Spock where Kirk explains his way of doing things and that he actually doesn't know what he's doing. Both Kirk and Spock have character arcs that I thought were interesting. So it's not like Kirk is staying the same throughout the movie.

 

[Franklin]

Star Trek is an incredible TV series and I've been watching it for as long as I can remember (1975 when I was 4). It's like a friend whose been with me my whole life, I honestly think it's the longest continual relationship I've had in my life.

But...

It is incredibly flawed. People tend to remember the good and forget the not-so-good which simply isn't fair to J.J. Abrams version.

Is Abrams version perfect? Hell no, not even close. An elderly Vulcan, who hasn't been in active service for a century flying such a critical mission. A beach ball full of Red Matter, enough to rearrange the universe sent along when a single drop will collapse a star. Cadet to Captain of the Flagship.

But, in 2009, I had fun with Star Trek for the first time in a very long time. Somewhere along the way those in charge of the franchise forgot it was suppose to be fun.

YMMV.

Yep. I was a little too young for the first-run of TOS, but my friends and I caught up in a hurry in the early 1970s when they started showing it in syndication. Even then, we'd laugh our asses off at some of the downright silly things. Our favorite episodes were those that were farcical (in the real definition of the word) like "A Piece of the Action", "The Trouble with Tribbles", and "I Mudd". They were fun.

Good characters helped, too. That and they themselves didn't seem to be taking it all that seriously, either. When Kirk faced the noose right before a commercial in "The Squire of Gothos", I really expected him to look at the camera, wink, and give a wry grin.

Whatever Kirk was doing, if it was trying to make a primative gun to shoot a Gorn, reasoning with red, green, and yellow brains, or wooing yet another alien vixen, you expected there was nothing else in the universe he'd rather be doing. He was having fun. That's what's back in Trek, now.

 

[Count Zero]

"It was fun. Oh my."

 

[Kruezerman]

You're all welcome to y'all's opinion. I'm done arguing with people who go in to review something already WANTING to hate it. It's dishonest and frankly, cowardly in journalistic terms. We like it. The general public likes it. The majority of critics LOVE it. Don't you DARE tell me that this makes Star Trek "dumb" and is meant for "dumb people." The arrogance of some people speaks volumes. You don't want to be apart of this new Star Trek? Fine. Just don't insult us or those that enjoy it.

That's just wrong.

This isn't about Star Trek anymore at this point, this is about sharing with others, and certain people can't stand it.

/endrant

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

They should have given Devin a press pass and free tub of popcorn. That'll learn 'em.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I really don't care about the "cadet to captain" complains I mean really using that logic we should have a trilogy of movies about Bruce Wayne where he doesn't become Batman until the tail end of the last movie.

I don't really watch a Star Trek movie because I care about Starfleet procedures and chain of command crap and other meaningless background minutia I watch it to see the crew going on space adventures.

And as such finding out that this is apparently getting derailed by said meaningless background minutia didn't exactly thrill me, in fact I consider it only wasting a few minutes a screen time a plus as I want to watch Kirk and Spock be Kirk and Spock, I don't give a crap about the Farragut, Republic or which ever other canon fodder ships Kirk was running around on before hand.

And another thing did it ever occur to anyone that Kirk may have gotten the promotion due to the fact that he stopped the guy who DESTROYED VULCAN, this isn't some colony in bumf@#k Idaho IN SPACE! this is kind of a major planet being the victim of what has got to be the worst terrorist attack in the federation history. So yeah i think stopping Nero is kind of important especially since he pulled it off while the fleet was screwing around at the ass end of the universe.

 

[GameOn]

I saw Into Darkness earlier today and expected to hate it after reading all the spoilers and disliking Star Trek 2009 but to my surprise I kind of enjoyed it. It has it's fair share of flaws, the plot feels kind of contrived and it rehashes too much from other movies but it didn't leave the sour taste in my mouth that the previous movie did.

It's pretty much what I expected these new movies to be really, simple but enjoyable sci-fi action movies. In that regard the movie that this reminds me the most of is Star Trek First Contact.

 

[Franklin]

"It was fun. Oh my."

Why I oughta -- .



(For whatever else may have been wrong or right about that scene, those were good word for Kirk to go out on, IMO.)

 

[trevanian]

What makes a good Star Trek film?

Two hours of aging actors smugly reciting poor dialogue if I remember the first ten of them correctly.

The Hollywood obsession with youth...

Not every hero needs to be in his 30ies...

I'm a little more concerned about the 'reciting poor dialog' generalization. Doesn't explain the waves of good laughter erupting during 15 or 20 McCoy lines, or some briliant & concise dialog that ... well, I've seen the movies recently. He either hasn't or didn't pay attention.

 

[Commishsleer]

What makes a good Star Trek film?

Two hours of aging actors smugly reciting poor dialogue if I remember the first ten of them correctly.

I know you're joking here but as much as I like to nitpick the Star Trek movies its all out of love. They're all great movies, even the one I hate . As I say to the 4 year old, it doesn't mean I love you less if I love your older brother.

I think he means the scene in the warp core which is lifted entirely from TWOK and even recites the same lines but different characters speak them. I was not comfortable with it thats for sure!

Its a big nod to the fans. Geez Abrams can't win. He/the screen writers did this for us fans. He needn't have done it. They could have solved the situation another way. Non-fans don't care. Thank you Abrams for trying at least

I think he means the scene in the warp core which is lifted entirely from TWOK and even recites the same lines but different characters speak them. I was not comfortable with it thats for sure!

Exactly.

But getting back to where this all started, Kirk is promoted from cadet to Captain against all common sense, in ST:09. Then demoted at the start of this film cause he's clearly not ready. But at the end of ST:ID, he was again in command. But in everything I've read, no where do I see he understands and accepts what he did was wrong. He simply gets rewarded for saving the day again.

So Kirk saves the Earth and stops a Klingon war and the captaincy of one of many starships Starfleet has, is too much of a reward. Are there any other captains in Starfleet who have done as much. There's probably people who are better at paper work. Maybe Captain Tracey's still there, perhaps those captains/commodores who agreed that Starfleet should install the M5 in an armed Starship.

I'm over the cadet-captain thing anyway. Its been 4 years. It happened, You can't change it. They even demoted him at the beginning of the film to appease the fans

 

[GameOn]

I really don't care about the "cadet to captain" complains I mean really using that logic we should have a trilogy of movies about Bruce Wayne where he doesn't become Batman until the tail end of the last movie.

Going from cadet to captain was a real problem for me as it was completely unbelievable. You have Kirk taking command when everyone else on the bridge outranks him. They could have all the Kirk and Spock conflict by having them both be lieutenants who are unsure how to proceed once they loose the captain and first officer. Going from lieutenant to captain would have at least been more plausible.

 

[BillJ]

Going from lieutenant to captain would have at least been more plausible.

Well...

According to the display during the space jump over Vulcan, Kirk was already a lieutenant.

 

[BillJ]

FX is currently showing a butchered version of Star Trek 2009.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Going from lieutenant to captain would have at least been more plausible.

Well...

According to the display during the space jump over Vulcan, Kirk was already a lieutenant.

And that fits with some aspects of his muddled PrimeVerse backstory as well:

The chronology of Kirk's latter days in Starfleet Academy (entry date of 2250), and service aboard the USS Republic and USS Farragut, is somewhat muddled. In "Court Martial", Kirk discussed meeting Ben Finney at the Academy, and that they were assigned together aboard the Republic, "some years later". According to many sources, including the Star Trek Chronology, Ensign Kirk's tour-of-duty aboard the Republic took place while Kirk was still an Academy cadet. In "Where No Man Has Gone Before", Gary Mitchell refers to Kirk a lieutenant while serving in the Academy, but it is not clear if this means a midshipman or a commissioned lieutenant.

In "Obsession", Kirk stated that Captain Garrovick of the Farragut was "my commanding officer from the day I left the Academy". In "A Private Little War" (taking place in 2268), he mentioned his first planet survey as young lieutenant on Neural thirteen years prior (in 2255) – leading many to believe that Kirk had graduated and was serving aboard the Farragut at the time.

Stephen E. Whitfield's 1968 book The Making of Star Trek states that "Kirk rose rapidly through the ranks and received his first command (the equivalent of a destroyer-class space ship) while still quite young." This has never been stated on screen.

One explanation of Kirk's problematic promotion history is that he received a brevet rank of ensign while at the Academy, and that his tour-of-duty aboard the Republic took place prior to his graduation as an advanced training cruise. Kirk would then have returned to the Academy, received a promotion to Lieuenant (or possibily Lieutenant Junior Grade), and served as a student instructor thereby fitting with Mitchell's statement that he remembered "Lieutenant Kirk at the Academy". It then would fit that Kirk would be commissioned from the Academy as a full Lieutenant in 2254 to serve under Captain Garrovick "from the day he left the Academy". However, dialog from episodes neither supports nor refutes this conclusion.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/James_T._Kirk#Ambiguities