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STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Grade the movie...


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I postulate that I can grow wings and fly to Mars.
Cute. And how pertinent! Especially considering I'm using words to illustrate my views, and you, well, don't.

I was just over at IMDB - the furor over Cumberbatch playing Khan is becoming preposterous enough that I think the Onion can get a video out of it now. :lol:
I really couldn't care less about casting, as long as whoever is hired does a good job in a fine story. Imagine the party they'd have over at the IMDB message boards (where tourette-like exclamations like "retard" or "moron" constitute valid posts) if they had put Cumberbatch in brownface.
 
I have observed that for the entire history of Star Trek films, there are always die hard Trekkers who can't be pleased.

What JJ has done is pretty monumental in that he's made the mythology accessible to people beyond the core fandom (people of my generation and your generation).

Totally agree. The red carpet last night was lined with many young people, aged 15-30 or so, all cheering wildly for Pine, Quinto and Urban.

I found fandom in 1980, as a fresh young 21-year-old. I often felt like the only fan in the room who'd loved ST:TMP. I went back through back issues of our club's newsletter and found venomous comments about Filmation's TAS, ST:TMP and Roddenberry's numerous attempts to get "ST: Phase II" afloat.

In following years, I saw fans reject ST II outright. (And even Roddenberry express his displeasure.) I saw fans who hated ST IV. I knew fans who refused to sample TNG. And even I found ST V rather unpalatable, but still a hoot to lampoon.

Funnily enough, when the next incarnation of Trek comes along, people tend to find the second-to-last one more tolerable. You don't see as much hatred for ST:TMP or "Enterprise" these days.

Therin, I can second you on most of these. I've watched these changes along with you. But you left out DS9 ;)

Yeah, die-hard Trekkies always find the last "unpalatable" Trek quite palatable once the next one is released. Then, it's on to fresh meat. :lol:
 
Art: BTW, are you in importing or exporting?

Anyway, I understand your points completely. The problem is that although those things you mentioned can work and do well, Star Trek had a reputation for trying to do all those things but stumble and fall at trying. At this stage, if they tried that formula (which in Trek's case was overused) and failed, we would not have seen any new Star Trek again for probably a long, long, long time.

At this stage, they did what worked, and it did that in spades. People I know saw the 2009 movie and loved it, and are now borrowing my DVDs of TOS. The best thing is happening in that they are digging the series immensely, and they definitely would not have touched it before seeing the movie.

The main thing, to me, is that Trek had tried for the route of moneymaker and good storyteller in a movie, but it didn't work as much as hoped for the general public (which, like it or not, is how a movie succeeds).
Apart from the quality of the movie itself, JJTrek has been very good for the franchise. No argument here. It renewed interest and made projects like the TNG HD remaster viable. (Those Blu-rays sell really well, I'm told.)

The film has reeled in many new fans, and if they were to come out with a new series now, the viewing figures might be a vast improvement over the dismal performance of ENT.

So why is Mr. Abrams nipping all potential series in the bud? He's going around saying, "As long as I'm doing Trek, nobody else is."

This is a franchise that isn't movie only, and soon the time will be right for it to play on multiple channels again. If only Abrams weren't so incredibly stubborn.

For example: Imagine a series about an ageless, deep-cover Aegis agent (you know, a colleague of Gary Seven), living through Trek's fictional history all the way from First Contact to the 24th century, desperately struggling behind the scenes to make sure things happen the way they are supposed to. Lone-wolf scenario, maybe a sidekick, throw in regular baddie who's actively working against the protagonist, then kill the sidekick in season 3 to really shake things up, season-long arcs etc.

That's new, possibly with some potential. And that's just off the top of my head, me being no writer at all. I dare the powers that be to come up with something better.
 
He evidently identifies himself as "Khan;" Spock Prime refers to "Khan Noonian Singh."


Which, BTW, is consistent with the way he withheld his full identity in "Space Seed."


Well, he was never positively identified as Indian to begin with. McGivers said "From the northern India area, I'd guess. Probably a Sikh." She was an historian, not an ethnologist. My impression was that he was Mexican.

lol Dennis, yes, a Mexican named Khan. Sure :lol:

I got a Japanese friend named Sullivan and a European-American relative named Wu. So?

so, it's a cop out. In real life a "DasGupta" can be from anywhere but in fiction, there is usually a reason I am a DasGupta and not a "Bailey".

It's a cop out and you know it, Dennis. Quit trying to excuse the heck out of this. Let's face it, Cumberbatch is the face of many new and good things to come and JJ and Co wanted to get in the front of the queue.

Like I said, I'm happy and I'll leave it at that. But you can't expect everyone to be happy with it.
 
So why is Mr. Abrams nipping all potential series in the bud? He's going around saying, "As long as I'm doing Trek, nobody else is."
That could also mean, "As long as I'm doing Trek, I'm doing it my way."

At least I haven't seen a lot of "AAAAUUUUUUUGH! THEY'RE MURDERING MY CHILDHOOD!" this time. :lol:
 
[...] Funnily enough, when the next incarnation of Trek comes along, people tend to find the second-to-last one more tolerable. You don't see as much hatred for ST:TMP or "Enterprise" these days.
Thing is, I liked every incarnation of Trek up until Trek 09. Some more (TNG, ENT, DS9), some less (VOY). (Although I tend to try and forget Nemesis exists.) There is no series/film that I used to denigrate and then grew softer towards as new things came along. Indeed, my deep affection for ST:TMP was love at first sight.

The thing with Trek pre-2008 is that it didn't need to be wall-to-wall action. It didn't have to be marketed as the next Dark Knight. 90% of the promotional artwork for Into Darkness had me going: "This is supposed to be Trek? Why are the characters armed to the teeth with huge ego-shooter guns?" I guess that's a sign of the times.

When in the past they did bad science (Genesis or Threshold), Braga at least had the decency to hang his head in shame. Nowadays, we have Spock proclaiming that supernovas can destroy whole galaxies. We have transporters that only require a quick firmware update to achieve limitless range. And no idea of what rank means, either. Kirk is insubordinate, commandeers the ship, gets to be captain on a technicality? Bah - he destroyed that evil Romulan, so let's have this heroic Cadet skip the ranks of Ensign, Lieutenant j.g., Lieutenant, Lieutenant Commander and Commander altogether and make him Captain. And while we're at it, let's not give him some science vessel, let him have the flagship of the Federation. That's not Trek, that's "Marvel's Kirk & Spock".

When you get a sandbox like the Trekverse to play in, stick to the rules. Bend them if you must, us fans are willing to look the other way in case of minor or mid-sized infractions. It's this careless, indifferent "anything goes, who gives a f**k" attitude the writers seem to have that drives me up the wall and makes me yearn for the Trek "of old".

I guess I wouldn't be so bitter if we had a "proper" TV series doing what Trek is best at (character-heavy plays), and the action films were special events. Now all we have is this monster movie franchise, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Wrong thread, I suppose. But boy did it feel good to vent. I miss Star Trek so very much.

I don't understand. You have five series, ten movies and a ton of other stuff to play with. Why do you miss it? It's all right there, waiting for you to watch.
 
Okay, you've been warned - a lengthy and somewhat disjointed synopsis of the movie from someone at IMDB.

Five minutes before entering Pike's office, Kirk had been skipping along after Spock saying, "Yeah, we're cool. I haven't lost a single man. Pike's gonna give us the five year mission" and the meeting with Pike completely bursts his bubble. When Spock is dismissed from Pike's office and he talks to Kirk alone, he really rips into him, in a different take to the one we saw in the trailers. He's really angry, but you realise that Pike sees Kirk almost as a son and feels he can do much better. Kirk's command is ripped away, they give the Enterprise back to Pike, Spock is assigned to the USS Bradbury. Kirk leaves with his tail between his legs. Greenwood was fantastic in this scene. The movie really started here for me.
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Er, yes, it's Kirk and Spock's hands on the glass. Yes, BC is Khan. Yes, Marcus is Section 31 Black ops.

There's another fantastic scene between Pike and Kirk the bar. Kirk is completely gutted an Pike tells him he asked for him as first officer aboard the Enterprisr, because he believes in him. Apparently he really had to go to bat with Admiral Marcus for the appointment.

Back in London, we all know Khan's blood saves the dying child and he enlists the father to bomb the Starfleet Data Archive. All the captains and first officers meet at Starfleet headquarters to plan strategy. Marcus reports that it was Harrison, and ex Sect 31 black ops specialist. Kirk is looking at vids from the bombing, and in a very cool extreme Google Earth kind of thing, he zooms in on Harrison. Kirk starts to ask why Harrison would bother to bomb a Data Archive when he knows all th material is n public record and starts to question the real motive, but for once he's unsure of himself and shuts up. Marcus has to wheedle it out of him.
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Kirk realises its just a ploy to get everyone together in the one room just as Harrison shows up to blow them all to Kingdom Come. Pike is badly injured, Spock runs to help him while Kirk picks up a gun and starts firing away at Harrison's ship, then throws some sort of piece of metal on the end of a fire hose thing into the ships vent, sending it crashing down, but not before they get a look at each other. As Pike gasps his last Breath, Spock melds with him. Kirk runs over and sees Pike is dead and bursts into tears, literally sobbing uncontrollably with Spock looking on. It's a very Powerful scene. It feels like that is Kirk experiencing the loss of his father.
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They find out that Harrison has fled to Kronos, in Klingon space, "The one place we cannot go." But Kirk insists on being allowed to go after him. So they devise a plan to travel to the edge of the Neutral Zone and Marcus organises for Kirk to carry a payload of advanced torpedoes that they have been developing. They beam them all aboard Enterprise, but Scotty won't sign off on the manifest because their shielding means he can't scan them to see what's inside. Therefore he refuses to have them aboard his ship because he doesn't know what danger they present. He also has a philosophical problem with the torpedoes and challenges Kirk. He doesn't like the military op. He wants to know if they are still explorers. Kirk orders him and he refuses, saying Kirk will have to fire him. So he does. Kirk appoints Chekov as Chief engineer and tells him to go get a red shirt. We all squeal. Scotty leaves the ship
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Spock/Uhura are fighting. It's almost like a teenage spat. Spock is seriously having girl trouble. Uhura's mad at him because she thinks he doesn't feel. That he endangers his life without a thought about how it affects him. It's not unlike the accusations Kirk was hurling at Spock earlier. Calling him a traitor and a robot. She's pretty snitty and they have a bit of an argument on the way to Kronos with Kirk reluctantly in the middle. Then Spock suddenly reveals that he does feel. He recounts feeling Pike's death - the pain, the fear, the loneliness. He says he felt a similar thing at the death of Vulcan. He never wants to have to feel like that again. We see Kirk and Uhura both rect, chagrined. They have been unfair on Spock. On a side note, Uhura seems to really like Kirk now. She worries about him a lot. There is also a lot of touching. Everyone is always caressing everyone else. Lots of closeups of hands on arms or shoulders. Fanfic, here we come.
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Sorry, just trying to say things the way they happened because it's more engaging that way. Just a fact dump is not going to be very fair to the movie.

In Engineering, Chekov discovers some weird fault or anomaly with the engines and Kirk instructs him to work on it. He leaves Sulu in command, and Sulu broadcasts to the surface that he has a whole pile of high-powered torpedoes pointing at them. Uhura goes with Kirk and Spock in the shuttle to find Harrison. She speaks Klingon, so this actually makes sense. After a StarWars-esque chase, the Klingons outnumber our galant trio but then Harrison shows up and starts wiping the floor with them all. He then walks up to Kirk and Kirk just lays into him (very neanderthal) and the blows just bounce off Harrison. Then Kirk decides he's not going to kill him, but take him into custody so he can stand trial on behalf of Admiral Pike.

I forgot to mention, a weapons specialist called Carol Wallace has joined the Enterprise to look after the torpedoes. Spock is suspicious and runs her data. Discovers Wallace is her mother's name. She's Marcus' daughter. I am getting a little confused about the scene order, but they decide to beam one of the torpedoes down to some planet to see what's inside. McCoy goes with Carol, but when the torpedo arms and catches McCoys arm in it, he screams at them to beam Carol up to save her, but she bravely stays to try and disarm it, sort of winning their trust. She yanks loose some big component, the outer casing slides open, and of course inside is a cryotube with a frozen body. Back on the ship, Harrison asks Kirk how many torpedoes they have and they tell him, they have a payload of 72. Isn't that how many cryotube turns were aboard the Botany Bay?
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Kirk asks Harrison who he is really. He replies that he was a product of genetic engineeriing from 300 years ago and says his name is Khan (audience whoops, groans, cheers). He starts to cleverly bait Kirk, saying that Marcus scanned space for their vessel then revived Khan and held his crews' lives over his head, forcing him to work for them, develop superior weaponry etc. He asks, is there nothing you wouldn't do for your crew, Captain? This gets Kirk in his Achilles heel. He obviously has separation issues and doesn't want to lose a single member of his little family. Bones takes some of Khan's blood and injects it into a dead Tribble.

Then Marcus shows up in a huge Dreadnaught-class ship. He tells Kirk that Khan is manipulating him and is surprised that Kirk didn't kill him. Kirk is suspicious of Marcus and won't hand Khan over. Says he's gonna take him back to Earth to stand trial. Marcus targets Enterprise and starts blowing them out of the sky. Kirk pleads for the lives of his crew, offers his life in their place, but Marcus just wants to destroy them. Carol jumps in so her father knows she's aboard, hoping that will stop the slaughter, but he just beams her aboard, then just as the Enterprise is about to be blown away, the Dreadnaught's weapons go offline. Scotty has smuggled himself aboard and is in control of the engineering deck. By communicator, Kirk decides to space jump aross with Khan with Scotty opening the port at his end. I the meantime Spock calls New Vulcan...
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Spock Prime appears on the view screen. Young Spock asks if, in his travels, they ever encountered a character called Khan? Spock Prime replies that Spock knows he swore he would never reveal details of their lives, but Khan was the most dangerous foe they ever faced and would kill them all without a thought. Spock asks whether they were able to defeat him and Spock Prime replies, "at great cost".
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Just as Spock is hearing of Khan's treachery on the Enterprise, Khan escapes from Kirk on the Dreadnaught. To cut a long story short... A big space batltle ensues, with Khan demanding that the cryotubes be beamed aboard the Dreadnaught, but Spock is a step ahead of him and Bones has removed the Cryotubes and Spock has armed the torpedoes, so they blow a hole in the Dreadnaught and as Khan plummets towards Earth (did I mention he had pursued them at Warp back to Earth? ) he aims the dying ship at Starfleet Academy to wipe them out. But the Enterprise is also in trouble. The Warp core is offline and the area is irradiated with no way to fix it. So begins the final scenes of TWOK, in reverse, even with most of the same dialogue. Kirk goes into the chamber / giant beer factory, with Scotty screaming after him, gets the core back on line, Spock defeats Khan then gets a frantic message from Scott that he'd better get down there.

It's a lovely death scene, really. Poor Spock/Quinto is inconsolable. There is a lot of crying in this movie. Kirk dies.
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Now you can guess what happens after that, can't you? We certainly did. And it did. :)

I'm getting pretty punchy. Might go and have a look at some of the other reviews and head to bed.

My impression was that, at first I thought all the Kirk/Spock Logic vs Feeling argument was a bit simplistic, but over the course of the movie, it played out beautifully with some great lines, and lots of emotion/tears. Similarly, the Kirk/Pike scenes are all wonderful.I think people will find the emotional component of this movie satisfying.

The effects are often brilliant, but I wasn't a fan of the 3D at all. At first it was cumbersome and distracting and after that I got used to it, but it doesn't really bring anything extra to the movie.

As for the parts of the plot that are rehashed from TOS prime universe. For a moment there, we got a bit excited that they were going to put a whole different twist on them, but it just wasn't enough of a twist, which left the end of the movie a bit predictable and flat. They perhaps should have branched into more unknown territory.

But as a movie about family, arguing and fighting but getting to know and trust and value each other, it was really lovely. It was certainly action-packed. If TWOK was a 9/10 and ST09 was an 8/10, I'd probably give this a 7, mostly for the raw emotion of the performances.

I hope that satisfies the hunger for this evening.


This seems bizzare coz it sound like I'm reviewing a movie Ive not seen yet but:

It doesn't sound very original more like a remake/tribute to The Wrath of Khan.

Pike = Turrell; Carol Marcus; Vengeance = Reliant. All that seems to be added is the terrorism plot. They even nicked the twist but switched the characters! I mean come on...

I love that Nimoy HAS returned once more - Star Trek; longest serving actor going right back to The Cage and now with his 8th has appeared in more Trek movies than anyone bar Majel as the Computer Voice/Chapel.I do have a penchant for familiar actors reprising favourite roles!

I will definitely see it with an open mind and enjoy it for what it is but I morn the lack of originality where they could have boldly gone...
 
I don't understand. You have five series, ten movies and a ton of other stuff to play with. Why do you miss it? It's all right there, waiting for you to watch.

I think it's the sad fact that Star Trek is now essentially a movie only franchise rather than a continuous series. Four years just for a two hour long adventure doesn't really offer much variety that gives Star Trek it's heart and soul. Not saying you can't have some of that in the movies, but with a series you can take more chances in doing something different.
 
lol Dennis, yes, a Mexican named Khan. Sure :lol:

I got a Japanese friend named Sullivan and a European-American relative named Wu. So?

That argument would be a lot more convincing if the filmmakers were also casting Asian actors as guys named Terrence McLaglan and Latinos as Greta Hoff. But when they only do the race-bending to cast actors of European descent in non-European roles it's called "whitewashing" and it has a long, shameful history in Hollywood.

There aren't a lot of starring roles for Indian actors in Hollywood. This was one of them. Abrams instead gave the part to a white guy who has no trouble finding parts. That's just plain wrong.
 
There aren't a lot of starring roles for Indian actors in Hollywood. This was one of them.

The part's never been played by an Indian actor or by an actor who resembled an Indian.:shrug:

For that matter Uhura's never been played by an actor who really looks African*, but white Americans tend to have rather generalized and inattentive notions about race and ethnicity to the extent they exist.


*I can't recall whether Uhura is canonically - that is, onscreen - African or whether that's just what's been said in supporting biographical material for the character. Sulu was eventually established to have been born in the United States (ST 4)
 
Montalban wasn't very "brown". Nor Indian.

Persis Khambatta was from India. And not "brown".

As sttngfan1701d said though, there's a difference between the olive color and pasty white. And he also aptly pointed out that at least in TOS they went so far as to apply bronze makeup to Montalban. Why did they go to that effort? It's because they were going for the traditional Sikh ruler look, which is typically a darker skin tone, definitely not pasty, not white, perhaps not olive, but at least bronze.

Requiring Khan to be a brown skinned man with a certain accent just because he's from a certain part of the world is just a little bit ... what's the word I'm looking for here? ... oh, yeah. Racist.

I'm afraid you don't at all know what racism is. You should perhaps try and look it up. While you're educating yourself, maybe take a look at prominent political positions of India and those of Sikhs, and then come back to me and laughingly assert that such a person should be pasty white.
 
And he also aptly pointed out that at least in TOS they went so far as to apply bronze makeup to Montalban.

Perhaps by 1982 that was perceived as a little too much like doing blackface? Or maybe not; it was a year or two later that Cameron was painting Jenette Goldstein into "Vasquez."
 
I don't know, it didn't really look good in the 60s at least. Is there a story for why they didn't do it for TWOK?

I thought Goldstein's was done very well and that she played the part very well. Was there a hubbub over that?
 
· Uhura can speak Klingon fluently when she can't in ST6 (I know, new timeline, whatevs).
NOMAD.


Nowadays, we have Spock proclaiming that supernovas can destroy whole galaxies. We have transporters that only require a quick firmware update to achieve limitless range. And no idea of what rank means, either. Kirk is insubordinate, commandeers the ship, gets to be captain on a technicality? Bah - he destroyed that evil Romulan, so let's have this heroic Cadet skip the ranks of Ensign, Lieutenant j.g., Lieutenant, Lieutenant Commander and Commander altogether and make him Captain. And while we're at it, let's not give him some science vessel, let him have the flagship of the Federation. That's not Trek, that's "Marvel's Kirk & Spock".
This reminds me of my reaction to the premier of TNG. We had the android, the empath, the über genius and the guy with amazing visual abilities. I thought, "That's not Star Trek, that's the X-Men." I had no idea that the captain was Professor X himself!


Where has JJ said that as long as he's doing Trek, no one else will?

Nowhere, as far as I remember.
Unless one counts LeVar Burton, who allegedly has been hearing such things from Abrams' camp.

It sounds like somebody's polite excuse for rejecting a lousy pitch.
 
Montalban wasn't very "brown". Nor Indian.

Persis Khambatta was from India. And not "brown".

As sttngfan1701d said though, there's a difference between the olive color and pasty white. And he also aptly pointed out that at least in TOS they went so far as to apply bronze makeup to Montalban. Why did they go to that effort? It's because they were going for the traditional Sikh ruler look, which is typically a darker skin tone, definitely not pasty, not white, perhaps not olive, but at least bronze.

Requiring Khan to be a brown skinned man with a certain accent just because he's from a certain part of the world is just a little bit ... what's the word I'm looking for here? ... oh, yeah. Racist.

I'm afraid you don't at all know what racism is. You should perhaps try and look it up. While you're educating yourself, maybe take a look at prominent political positions of India and those of Sikhs, and then come back to me and laughingly assert that such a person should be pasty white.
I don't have to look it up because I already know what it means. I also know that it's thrown around way too often, even here on the BBS. Illustrating absurdity by being absurd is a time honored tradition where I come from.

I also said in another post that I'm amused by the supposedly enlightened Trek fans who get all twisted out of shape when things aren't exactly 'the way they're supposed to be'.

But hey, it's always fun being talked down to. Thanks for playing, and here's your lovely parting gift.
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