STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

[sttngfan1701d]

No explanation for Khan's appearance is offered in the film, any more than an explanation for Kirk being a blue-eyed fellow who doesn't look much like William Shatner was offered in ST 2009.

But does he say his name is Khan or Khan Noonien Singh?

I mean, I won't lose sleep over it either but it is disappointing. There are so many Indian actors that are perfect for the badass tyrant role, and we get Captain Britishguy WhiteMan?

They could've at least looked at guys like Sunil Shetty (my personal choice), Arjun Rampal, John Abraham, Abhishek Bachchan, Aamir Khan...

 

[stargirl]

I sort of skimmed through this thread with my hands over my eyes, I don't really want to know specific plot details (I appreciate everyone using the spoiler tags!) but I do really want to know just one thing, for sure, from someone who has actually seen the movie: Is Cumberbatch Khan? I know its been answered here but I'm not totally sure if its just via the imdb thread or by hearsay or whatever, and I don't want to click on any of the spoiler thingys in case the ending or plot points are revealed. If he is I'm going to need time to prepare myself for all the hate on other parts of the internet that decision will get (people have been angry about the possibility since rumours first started, due to whitewashing etc). If someone who has themselves seen the movie could answer just that one question I would really, really appreciate it! Thanks

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

No explanation for Khan's appearance is offered in the film, any more than an explanation for Kirk being a blue-eyed fellow who doesn't look much like William Shatner was offered in ST 2009.

But does he say his name is Khan or Khan Noonien Singh?

He evidently identifies himself as "Khan;" Spock Prime refers to "Khan Noonian Singh."


Which, BTW, is consistent with the way he withheld his full identity in "Space Seed."

KHAN: Khan is my name.

KIRK: Khan--nothing else?

KHAN: Khan.

I mean, I won't lose sleep over it either but it is disappointing. There are so many Indian actors that are perfect for the badass tyrant role, and we get Captain Britishguy WhiteMan?

Well, he was never positively identified as Indian to begin with. McGivers said "From the northern India area, I'd guess. Probably a Sikh." She was an historian, not an ethnologist. My impression was that he was Mexican.

 

[nickyboy]

Ok, so I have had some time to reflect on this, the whole time leading up to the reveal I was hoping that he wouldn't be Khan. I wanted the writers to do their own thing. But I was ok with Benedict being Khan, but then in the last 3rd of the movie the writers took a wrong turn.

Again I say, I loved the 2009 movie, the franchise needed to be reset. So then the writers should embrace this freedom and do their own thing. But instead they find themselves re-doing scenes from previous movies (Did they really think the new scenes could top the old ones?) even to the point of recycling dialogue from previous trek films.

 

[aeriolewinters]

even to the point of recycling dialogue from previous trek films.

I think that this is the point of the realms of "Destiny" that the whole movie series is all about. Yes this is an Alternate Universe, but the underlying theme is that Destiny will always find you, no matter how much work you do to alter it.

These scenes I guess are better enjoyed by the casual fans, then a more learned fan can tell them to watch WoK to further appreciate it.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

They probably are giving consideration to the fact that most people who will see this movie have never seen the original versions of the scenes in earlier Trek films, and are counting on most of the long-time fans to be charmed by the references (and doubtless are aware that some percentage will compare and complain as well).

 

[yenny]

No explanation for Khan's appearance is offered in the film, any more than an explanation for Kirk being a blue-eyed fellow who doesn't look much like William Shatner was offered in ST 2009.

But does he say his name is Khan or Khan Noonien Singh?

He evidently identifies himself as "Khan;" Spock Prime refers to "Khan Noonian Singh."


Which, BTW, is consistent with the way he withheld his full identity in "Space Seed."

KHAN: Khan is my name.

KIRK: Khan--nothing else?

KHAN: Khan.

I mean, I won't lose sleep over it either but it is disappointing. There are so many Indian actors that are perfect for the badass tyrant role, and we get Captain Britishguy WhiteMan?

Well, he was never positively identified as Indian to begin with. McGivers said "From the northern India area, I'd guess. Probably a Sikh." She was an historian, not an ethnologist. My impression was that he was Mexican.

The surname Singh is from manly the India, Nepal, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh area. Khan was more likely a High Prince. Which is one of the meanings for Khan.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

That's nice.

My surname is Irish. I've never been to Ireland nor has anyone on either side of my family for three generations back - and most of my ancestry is in fact German and English.

Names tell you less and less as modern history goes on.

 

[Gsam]

I'm thinking this is going to be an unpopular opinion. But I think J.J. and gang were attempting to pay homage to TOS..a shout out if you will. I don't think they meant it in a malicious way or anything.

Maybe because I treat TOS and AOS has two totally separate, unrelated events, I am able to feel this way. I know that a bunch of you will be commenting on how this is not possible and then list all the reasons why. I watched TOS on its first run back in the 60's and am not in the least offended by J.J.'s version of events. He made a movie about hope, and how people come through a terrible ordeal/event and become a family and see all sides of a person and still love them.

I just think some people had their minds made up that anything but Roddenberry's trek is not trek..(everybody is entitled to their beliefs) so no matter what J.J. or anyone else did they wouldn't be happy.

That Trek ( for good or bad) is never coming back and if you don't care for the new trek then that is okay too...but really you should open your minds to change..because it is here..has been here...time to remember but move on.

I'm sorry if anyone is offended by this..I just felt like it is the elephant in the room and someone needed to say something.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

I'm thinking this is going to be an unpopular opinion. But I think J.J. and gang were attempting to pay homage to TOS..a shout out if you will. I don't think they meant it in a malicious way or anything.

JJ and gang paid endless homage to TOS in the first movie. It was clear to see that. So, it's probably no surprise they do it in this one too. Personally, I can accept the idea that Spock warned them to intercept the Botany Bay as a way of preventing a potential hazard. But along those lines: was Khan the *worst* thing he warned them about? Doomsday Machine? Whale probe? Borg? etc...

Anyway, I only partially spoiled myself with this thread. I'm sufficiently happy with how this sounds like it's going.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

It's not clear from the leaked stuff that Spock Prime gave them information about the Botany Bay - in fact, when Spock contacts Spock Prime late in the movie to ask about Khan, it's mentioned that Prime had vowed not to reveal anything about his own universe or experiences.

It's conceivable that Marcus and company got some historical data from the Narada, I suppose.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

It's not clear from the leaked stuff that Spock Prime gave them information about the Botany Bay - in fact, when Spock contacts Spock Prime late in the movie to ask about Khan, it's mentioned that Prime had vowed not to reveal anything about his own universe or experiences.

It's conceivable that Marcus and company got some historical data from the Narada, I suppose.

I guess this makes more sense. I would guess Adm. Marcus was involved from the beginning in some fashion.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

That's nice.

My surname is Irish. I've never been to Ireland nor has anyone on either side of my family for three generations back - and most of my ancestry is in fact German and English.

Names tell you less and less as modern history goes on.

True story. Mine is also Irish. But my father is white and my mother is Filipina. If you went by my appearance, I appear more Hispanic.

 

[yenny]

It's not clear from the leaked stuff that Spock Prime gave them information about the Botany Bay - in fact, when Spock contacts Spock Prime late in the movie to ask about Khan, it's mentioned that Prime had vowed not to reveal anything about his own universe or experiences.

It's conceivable that Marcus and company got some historical data from the Narada, I suppose.

There would be 4 possibility in how they had gotten the information about Khan.
1: Is what you had stated.
2: They got it off the Klingons.
3: They found a crash Federation Starship, that was accidentally thrown back in time.
4: They found another Khan, that had escape from Earth in another sleeper ship.

 

[Ryan8bit]

No explanation for Khan's appearance is offered in the film, any more than an explanation for Kirk being a blue-eyed fellow who doesn't look much like William Shatner was offered in ST 2009.

Pine generally looks like Kirk though. Saldana generally looks like Uhura. Cho like Sulu, Yelchin like Chekov, etc. Some of the characters remarkably resembled the previous versions.

And I mean, we know that they meant well and tried at least to hire someone Latino, however misguided that may be. But then they gave up and went with pale British white guy cliche. I'm sure Cumberbatch will do a great job and I'll do my best to ignore it, but why didn't they say, "Hey, this guy could be an Indian instead of a Mexican, right? We know and worked with a charismatic, attractive, athletic Indian gentlemen for years who would be perfect for the role." Couldn't they have looked to someone like Naveen Andrews who they worked very closely with on Lost and would've been great in the role? Are they afraid that someone too brown as the villain is going to cause problems and turn away viewers? Is it just better to play it safe and whitewash Khan?

 

[WarpFactorZ]

Pine generally looks like Kirk though. Saldana generally looks like Uhura. Cho like Sulu, Yelchin like Chekov, etc. Some of the characters remarkably resembled the previous versions.

You said it in such a PC way....

And I mean, we know that they meant well and tried at least to hire someone Latino, however misguided that may be.

This one, same point, but not so PC.

 

[sttngfan1701d]

And I mean, we know that they meant well and tried at least to hire someone Latino, however misguided that may be. But then they gave up and went with pale British white guy cliche. I'm sure Cumberbatch will do a great job and I'll do my best to ignore it, but why didn't they say, "Hey, this guy could be an Indian instead of a Mexican, right? We know and worked with a charismatic, attractive, athletic Indian gentlemen for years who would be perfect for the role." Couldn't they have looked to someone like Naveen Andrews who they worked very closely with on Lost and would've been great in the role? Are they afraid that someone too brown as the villain is going to cause problems and turn away viewers? Is it just better to play it safe and whitewash Khan?

It must've been a case of "We can get Benedict Cumberbatch?! Wow, let's go for him!" And to be fair we don't know what the casting process was like. But if they truly didn't even consider Indian actors, that's just lazy. And kinda dumb to be honest.

Ironically the actor who played Captain Robau in the first film would've made a fantastic Khan too.

Anyway, the film is made, it's a non-issue. But it's also a missed opportunity IMO.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I initiated contact with this person as soon as the screening wrapped because I knew they attended, not the other way around.

Actually, I only just realized this morning that it is one of my friends, who was sitting near nickyboy, Jean Prouvaire and me at the screening. Now I know what all the frenzied iPadding was all about!

And to be fair we don't know what the casting process was like. But if they truly didn't even consider Indian actors, that's just lazy. And kinda dumb to be honest.

Actually, I recall an early interview where someone said they had a different actor in mind (Edgar Ramirez?), but Cumberbatch's taped performance, sent to the casting people, blew them all away.

Are they afraid that someone too brown as the villain is going to cause problems and turn away viewers? Is it just better to play it safe and whitewash Khan?

Montalban wasn't very "brown". Nor Indian.

Persis Khambatta was from India. And not "brown".

 

[sttngfan1701d]

I initiated contact with this person as soon as the screening wrapped because I knew they attended, not the other way around.

Actually, I only just realized this morning that it is one of my friends, who was sitting near nickyboy, Jean Prouvaire and me at the screening. Now I know what all the frenzied iPadding was all about!

And to be fair we don't know what the casting process was like. But if they truly didn't even consider Indian actors, that's just lazy. And kinda dumb to be honest.

Actually, I recall an early interview where someone said they had a different actor in mind, but Cumberbatch's taped performance, sent to the casting people, blew them all away.

Are they afraid that someone too brown as the villain is going to cause problems and turn away viewers? Is it just better to play it safe and whitewash Khan?

Montalban wasn't very "brown". Nor Indian.

Persis Khambatta was from India. And not "brown".

That's fair enough, but not even Indians from the furthest reaches of Kashmir are as white as Benedict Cumberbatch. In "Space Seed" Montalban had brown makeup to appear darker; in Star Trek II they probably said "screw it" and used Montalban again because he had previously played the role and was great (and by '82, a household name because of Fantasy Island).

If the character is just "Khan" and not Khan Noonien Singh, I guess they can whitewash him all they want. But if you have a second crack at casting a badass Indian guy, I would've thought in 2011/2012 they would actually look at badass Indian actors who can play great villains. But it seems that they first went to Latino actors and then Cumberbatch? Huh?

But like I said...it's a non-issue now. The movie is made. But I swear I will laugh out loud in the movie theater if Mr. Lilywhite utters the dialogue "I am Khan Noonien Singh!" It's so silly it approaches Toby Stephens-as-a-previous-Korean-guy territory from Die Another Day.

 

[Devon]

Actually, I recall an early interview where someone said they had a different actor in mind (Edgar Ramirez?), but Cumberbatch's taped performance, sent to the casting people, blew them all away.

Yes. In fact Benecio Del Toro was the front runner for a little while until contract negotiations fell through. The wiser choice was made. Benedict is a rising star who already has a loyal following, is popular in UK due to Sherlock, etc. Benedict will put butts in seats that's for sure (more-so than Benecio at least.)