TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

[TheGodBen]

How did you make that second (and for that matter, that first) leap??

Nananananananana fishing!

Nananananananana Leader!

For a time I was considering calling her Batman, but I decided that would be too confusing and went with Dead Fish.

I guess what it comes down to is that I don't think the Prophets caused the penance, whatever it actually is, despite what is implied in the episode. (ie. They didn't kill Ziyal, they didn't make Dukat go crazy, etc.)

I agree that the Prophets didn't cause the penance or Ziyal's death, or any of that. But the Prophets did have some sort of intent for Sisko to confront the Pah-Wraiths, and they saw that by destroying the Dominion ships that confrontation would happen differently and would involve Dukat, and they saw that it would end in Sisko's "death". They didn't cause those events to happen, but they allowed them to happen because Sisko was so insistent on destroying the fleet.

This theory of mine is actually based on the original ending for the show where Sisko was going to be trapped in the wormhole, but they changed it to the current version where Sisko said he would return because of Avery Brooks' concerns. My opinion is that Sisko said he would return because he was determined to do so but didn't realise that he couldn't. A lot of people disagree with me about that, but I think that Sisko being trapped in the wormhole makes more thematic sense than an ending where he can return at any time, so that's what I go with. And since I don't read the novels, I'm free to do so.

I still think Odo should've been the one killed at the end of this episode instead of Ziyal. He knowingly committed high treason against the Bajor and the Federation by linking with the Female Changeling. Kira would've been justified to execute him on the spot.

The way I see it, Odo was overwhelmed and made a mistake, but he soon realised that mistake and managed to save the day, so he can be forgiven. But that's just me being the softy liberal that I am.

I like Sacrifice of Angels too, but I disagree about the disappearing fleet. I definitely think it's a very egregious deus ex machina, though I agree it's an important part in the Sisko/Prophets story.

I can certainly understand why you feel that way, I disliked the Prophets' intervention myself when I first saw it, but I guess I've just grown an appreciation for it over time. They could have just stopped the Dominion from taking down the minefield at the last second, but they decided to do something less expected and more personal instead. And like you said, I like the scene where Sisko pleads for help, it's an important part of his development.

 

[Seven of Five]

This theory of mine is actually based on the original ending for the show where Sisko was going to be trapped in the wormhole, but they changed it to the current version where Sisko said he would return because of Avery Brooks' concerns. My opinion is that Sisko said he would return because he was determined to do so but didn't realise that he couldn't. A lot of people disagree with me about that, but I think that Sisko being trapped in the wormhole makes more thematic sense than an ending where he can return at any time, so that's what I go with. And since I don't read the novels, I'm free to do so.

Oh that bugs me so much when Sisko says that he'll return. It's sillyness. The Prophets don't experience time in the same way that we do, so why couldn't he be there with everyone else at the end of What You Leave Behind? He could be with the Prophets as long as was needed, and then be back in the blink of an eye. Sisko should have been stuck with the Prophets permanantly, as it's the only conclusion that makes sense emotionally during the final scenes.

I understand Brooks had concerns with the potentially bad taste that Star Trek's only black captain leaving his black wife and baby behind could leave. I just think that in a show like Star Trek, those kinds of things wouldn't (or shouldn't) be an issue with the audience anyway.

Sacrifice of Angels is a brilliant conclusion to the Occupation Arc, that only really faultered with Sons and Daughters. I agreeit wasn't perfect, but it's still a very powerful episode. It has never been the Prophets saving the day that bothered me in the episode, as that made sense in regards to Sisko's Emissary arc.

What did bother me was the Defiant being the only ship that made it through the blockade. That was a bit of a boner moment for the writers, and could have been written better. In the heat of everything gping to shit though, it only registers as a small gripe.

 

[Sykonee]

Not sure why the Defiant being the first (and for a while only) ship to break through is so implausible. It's a small, highly-maneuverable ship. Plus, it's tough. Makes sense it'd have the highest chances out of all the Starfleet ships. (and you bet the Klingons would stick behind for the glorious battle!)

 

[DS9Continuing]

I always would have preferred it if Sisko had gone into the wormhole specifically with the intention of asking the Prophets to help. I mean, we had that scene in "Favour the Bold" where he reads through the propheices looking for "loopholes." That would have been the perfect set-up for him realising he can ask them for help.

Instead he goes in with the intention of using his one little ship to fight off more than a thousand Dominion ships, because that makes sense, and is initially annoyed when the Prophets interfere. It would have made a lot more sense if getting the Prophets to interfere had been his plan all along.

.

 

[BennyRussel]

... Any suggestions? Because if you guys don't come up with anything then I'll just come up with something stupid like F-Change.)

How about "Ol' Buttercups"

 

[TheGodBen]

I understand Brooks had concerns with the potentially bad taste that Star Trek's only black captain leaving his black wife and baby behind could leave. I just think that in a show like Star Trek, those kinds of things wouldn't (or shouldn't) be an issue with the audience anyway.

Maybe Brooks was right that it wouldn't have played well in the real world, just look at how some fans overreacted to... that incident involving Janeway in the novels. And some fans are still pissed about Kirk's death in Generations and want him brought back electro-magically. But I guess this is a discussion that should be left until I reach the finale, five years from now after I take some extended breaks.

How about "Ol' Buttercups"

I like the sound of it, but I must ask why.



You Are Cordially Invited (**½)

Ten o'clock in the morning,
And we're talking in the closet.
I tell Kira that I'm sorry,
And she says "Think nothing of it."
I say "I was so stupid."
She says "Yes you were,
But Rom wasn't executed,
And nobody got hurt."

But the way the closet light hits her eyes,
It makes me want to break down and cry.
Except I don't have any tear ducts,
So I keep looking like I don't give a fuck.

She smiles at me coyly,
And says "Let's move on from this."
Something deep down inside me,
Makes me want to lean in for a kiss.
Then we hear a noise in the bedroom,
And our eyes turn towards the door.
Worf and Dax enterd the bedroom,
Now Kira and I are done for.
Worf and Dax are fighting,
About something that happened at the party.
And in the closet's low lighting,
I accidentally knock over a Barbie.

The sound causes Worf to prick up his ears.
Somebody's in the room with him, he fears.
"What the unholy fuck was that?!"
He lifts his shirt and pulls out his gat.

I'm so scared I nearly shit myself,
Except I don't have a real ass.
But unfortunately Kira does herself,
And she lets out some panicky gas.
Outside in the bedroom,
Worf is looking under the bed,
Kira and I fear our doom,
We're completely losing our heads.

Worf goes to the bathroom,
He looks in the shower,
Kira and I are entombed,
We can do nothing but cower.
Worf looks under the blankets.
He checks in the dresser.
He looks at the closet.
I morph up a beretta.
He walks up to the closet.
He goes up to the closet.
Now he's at the closet.
Now he's opening the closet.
...closet.
...closet.

If the closet scene had been written like that, nobody would be complaining that it was a lame cop-out that concluded a vital character arc off-screen. No, we'd all be praising Ron Moore's lyrical genius instead, and crediting him for the invention of hip-hopera. Sadly, that didn't happen. Odo's betrayal then redemption was a fine idea and I didn't punish Favor the Bold/Sacrifice of Angels for using it, but I did punish Behind the Lines for going too far in portraying Odo's sinister shift, and I'm punishing this episode for failing to follow up on it properly.

Otherwise, the episode was a fine light-hearted story that brings some levity back to the show after all the doom and gloom of the occupation arc. After everything the characters have been though they deserve a chance to relax, and so does the audience. That's one of the key elements of DS9, the show did explore darker themes than the rest of the franchise but it was never full-on depressing. Sometimes the show went too far with these fluffy episodes in the final two seasons, but coming right after the occupation arc and the major victory in SoA, this is a good time for a festive episode. The jokes may not be the most original you've ever heard, but they're well executed and leave you with a pleasant feeling that this family of characters are back together again.

 

[Seven of Five]

Yeah he missed a trick there. Definite five star episode!

 

[Ln X]

This theory of mine is actually based on the original ending for the show where Sisko was going to be trapped in the wormhole, but they changed it to the current version where Sisko said he would return because of Avery Brooks' concerns. My opinion is that Sisko said he would return because he was determined to do so but didn't realise that he couldn't. A lot of people disagree with me about that, but I think that Sisko being trapped in the wormhole makes more thematic sense than an ending where he can return at any time, so that's what I go with. And since I don't read the novels, I'm free to do so.

I agree with your theory, I mean with Sisko living in the Celestial Temple, I bet the Prophets will have a whole bunch of stuff to teach him. He would probably only return with the Prophet's blessing or if they send him out on another Emissary mission...

 

[TheGodBen]

Resurrection (**)

When I said in the previous review that I'm glad this family of characters is back together again, what I meant is that I'm glad they're back together so they can work on kicking the Dominion's ass back to the Gamma Quadrant, not that I'm glad they're back together so that we can get a season 3 episode. Because that's what Resurrection should have been, a late season 3/early season 4 episode. An episode dealing with Kira's feelings of loss over Bareil doesn't work in season 6, and it especially doesn't work as the first non-arc episode of the season. Poor timing all around.

I really liked Crossover, largely because of the Kira/μKira dynamic, as well as the fact that the episode had a fantastically eerie atmosphere. I was considerably less enthralled by Through the Looking Glass and Shattered Mirror because of their focus on comic-book action and not the more interesting consequences of travelling to a mirror universe. To Resurrection's credit, it actually does focus on the latter, μBareil's existential crisis from learning about the life of Vedek Bareil is something that I can easily imagining happening to a lot of us if we learned about our mirror selves, especially if they happened to be a better person than we are. The episode also finally brings Kira and μKira back together, although their interactions here are not nearly as interesting as those in Crossover were.

The main problem with this episode is that it has no soul to it and the result is a very predicable episode. From the moment μBareil showed up, it was almost inevitable that he and Kira would end up in bed together, and it was pretty obvious from the moment that μKira showed up that μBareil would betray her because of his growing conscience. Nothing truly unexpected happened, it's a very by-the-numbers story about redemption that ends without any consequences and can be easily forgotten. After the excitement and the daring of the occupation arc, this comes across as an extremely safe episode. It's not a bad episode, but it's unbecoming of the new DS9.

 

[Ln X]

After the excitement and the daring of the occupation arc, this comes across as an extremely safe episode. It's not a bad episode, but it's unbecoming of the new DS9.

They weren't playing safe, they simply ran out of ideas!

 

[Seven of Five]

Resurrection is very boring, and I was a fan of Bareil. I agree that it might have worked better sooner after our Bareil died, but there are only so many ways to polish a turd.

 

[MacLeod]

Resurrection is definatly one of the weaker MU stories.

 

[Seven of Five]

Yeah those episodes really had diminishing returns as the series went on. Emporer's New Cloak was terrible.

 

[Spock/Uhura Fan]

I really liked Resurrection, and I thought it was one of the better MU episodes, placing and all. Crossover was the one I couldn't take and like the least. Just goes to show that opinions vary.

 

[Sindatur]

I really liked Resurrection, and I thought it was one of the better MU episodes, placing and all. Crossover was the one I couldn't take and like the least. Just goes to show that opinions vary.

Oh...NO, the accepted opinion is that the First Mirror episode was the best, and they steadily got worse, each outing, you are not allowed to hold a nerd card, and have a different opinion I think I do like Crossover best, but, I don't go in "proper" order for the rest of them

Yea, I posted the other day, that my friend who loves TOS, would be savaged on that Forum, because he has the "Wrong opinion" on a lot of episodes. Hates fan Favorites, and loves some of the bashed episodes the best.

 

[Spock/Uhura Fan]

I really liked Resurrection, and I thought it was one of the better MU episodes, placing and all. Crossover was the one I couldn't take and like the least. Just goes to show that opinions vary.

Oh...NO, the accepted opinion is that the First Mirror episode was the best, and they steadily got worse, each outing, you are not allowed to hold a nerd card, and have a different opinion I think I do like Crossover best, but, I don't go in "proper" order for the rest of them

Yea, I posted the other day, that my friend who loves TOS, would be savaged on that Forum, because he has the "Wrong opinion" on a lot of episodes. Hates fan Favorites, and loves some of the bashed episodes the best.

Well, at least I wasn't looking to be given a nerd card. I'll just march to the beat of my own drum, and if it's sometimes in sync with the majority of fans and sometimes not, then that's fine with me.

I think my favorite MU episode was the one where Jake's "mother" dies to save him.

 

[DonIago]

I consider "Crossover" the best of the DS9 MU episodes, but consider "Looking Glass" and "Shattered Mirror" quite good as well.

After that things get a bit dicey.

 

[TheGodBen]

I think I do like Crossover best, but, I don't go in "proper" order for the rest of them

I'd put Through the Looking Glass lower than other people, but otherwise I go along with the consensus. That's my strategy, I rock the boat just a little bit, but agree with everyone most of the time so that people like me.


Statistical Probabilities (***½)

A large part of whether or not you're going to enjoy this episode comes down to whether you like the Jack Pack or find them insufferable. Personally, I like them. They're something different, they're pretty much insane and unable to operate in the real world (or what passes for the real world in Star Trek) but they're still clearly people with wants and needs. I can relate to them because, when they are combined, they make up a perfect nerd. Jack represents a nerd's megalomania and resentment towards the world for not accepting nerds, Sarina represents the quiet, non-social side of nerds, Patrick represents nerds' stunted maturity, and Lauren represents the fact that nerds are sex-starved. Yes, there's a little Jack Pack in all of us. Or possibly just me.

My main issue with the episode is that Bashir loses touch with reality so quickly that it doesn't translate well in the episode. I think the idea is sound, Bashir has always been an arrogant character so the fact that spending so much time around around genetically engineered super-geniuses causes him to become obsessed with the correctness of their statistical analyses makes sense for him. The problem is that we don't see enough of Bashir with the Jack Pack to fully understand how Bashir has become so engrossed in their work that he can no longer see the wood from the trees. We hear him discussing it with O'Brien, but that's not the same. The result is that when Bashir starts to passionately argue that the Federation must surrender it doesn't feel natural. The concept is good, the execution just needed to be better.

A plus for this episode is that it returns to the Dominion situation and reveals that Damar is the new leader of Cardassia, although on far less even terms than those Dukat had. The episode kinda sets the course for the rest of the war; it indicates that the Dominion are currently in the dominant position, that the Romulans will enter the war on the side of the Federation, and that the Cardassians will eventually revolt against Dominion rule. It's interesting that the writers laid out the broad strokes of the war in this episode for us all to see, but they still had those events play out in unexpected and exciting ways.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

The episode kinda sets the course for the rest of the war; it indicates that the Dominion are currently in the dominant position, that the Romulans will enter the war on the side of the Federation, and that the Cardassians will eventually revolt against Dominion rule. It's interesting that the writers laid out the broad strokes of the war in this episode for us all to see, but they still had those events play out in unexpected and exciting ways.

In hindsight, it also helps make the Jack Pack more convincing. While they were wrong on the "having to surrender" front, the fact that their predictions regarding the war are generally accurate helps, on second viewing, convince me that they must have been genuinely good at what they do. So I'm more able to buy the idea that Bashir accepts their recommendation, now that I know they're generally on the right track.

Oh, and I like the Jack Pack, too. I'm glad they returned in season 7.

 

[TheGodBen]

In hindsight, it also helps make the Jack Pack more convincing. While they were wrong on the "having to surrender" front, the fact that their predictions regarding the war are generally accurate helps, on second viewing, convince me that they must have been genuinely good at what they do. So I'm more able to buy the idea that Bashir accepts their recommendation, now that I know they're generally on the right track.

And to add to that, future events also reinforce the message of this episode which is that individuals can affect the future. The Romulans did enter the war as was predicted, but they did so sooner than expected because of the actions of Sisko and Garak, thus striking before too much damage was done to Starfleet. The Cardassians did rebel, but they didn't predict that the instigator that rebellion would be the leader of Cardassia who would have important strategic knowledge and connections.


The Magnificent Ferengi (****)

This is my favourite Ferengi comedy episode, which isn't all that difficult an accomplishment if I'm being honest, but it's still a pretty damn good episode. My usual complaint about Ferengi comedies is that they rely too much on the same tired old jokes about greed and mysogyny, and why The Magnificent Ferengi works for me is that it doesn't rely on those jokes too much. This episode is about a group of Ferengi that are genuinely trying to do something heroic, the jokes are more about how they're not good at a new thing rather than how they obsess over their usual stuff.

The story is kinda dumb, but that's forgiveable in a comic episode like this. Why the Ferengi would kidnap Ishka is a question that can never truly be answered to anyone's satisfaction in-universe, so we just have to go with the real-world answer which is that Wallace Shawn wasn't available. Honestly, I think that works a little better, I have my gripes about Ishka but I'd rather see her bashing Nog over the head than Zek. Iggy Vorta is also a terrible negotiator and conceded way too much to Quark, thus allowing the Ferengi to out-smart him, but I suppose it's possible that he underestimated what Ferengi are capable of. And I've got to give Iggy props for wearing a shirt, that fact alone is worth a star.

One other issue is that a large part of Quark's motivation in this episode is his desire to be a hero, but he already got to be a hero in Sacrifice of Angels, and those heroics were actually mentioned i this episode, so I don't know why he feels a need to prove himself when he already has. Rom too, he risked his life twice during the occupation and was nearly executed for it. But those are minor issues, and you're not supposed to take this episode too seriously.