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Was there a need for an alternate timeline?

Yep and many Spock-centric stories are about him finding the human way is the "better" way.

It's funny. I've had this argument before, on this very board. Spock is such an appealing character that a surprising number of fans seem to think that Star Trek endorses the Vulcan Way as a role model for humanity . . . whereas the show itself actually had a very ambiguous attitude towards the idea of repressing human emotions. (On TOS, that's something evil computers usually want to do.)

Even Roddenberry didn't believe that Trek was about placing logic above emotion--or else why would he have had Spock reject Kolihnar and have his ephiphany with V'Ger in the one and only Trek movie he had a hand in . . . ?
 
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Most Star Trek aliens are presented as lacking when compared to humans. The humans may learn a lesson along the way but it's the aliens who as most often presented as the ones most in need of an attitude adjustment. There are exceptions of couse but this is the way that most stories play out.
 
I certainly didn't see "Put aside logic, do what feels right." as "completing the subversion of Rodenberry's Trek":wtf:

I saw a frank admission from a guy who, looking back on his long life, realizes the way he chose may not have been the best or most fulfilling. Spock is a hero, but he's not infallable. Irrespective of our entertainment watching him trying to be the universe's #1 Vulcan, I can believe him looking back at his life and thinking, "all that termoil and angst and stress, trying to be something that deep down I'm not, it wasn't worth it. I wish I'd realized it long before V'Ger."
 
After TMP, embracing his human half is completely in-character.

Exactly. One of the few good scenes in Movie #5 was when he revealed his character growth to Sybok, explaining that he was no longer as conflicted or ashamed about his human heritage as he had been when he was younger . . . .

First, this is prequel (sorta), so it’s before TMP. But even if you see diluting Spock’s personality as an ironic form of "character growth", where’s the fire already? See my argument about saving that stuff until he retires (so it can be confused with senility :p).
The Valeris quote was from Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country. Therefore, I naturally interpreted your criticism of it in the context of the Prime timeline, after the events of TMP.
"Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris."

A very human-centric attitude anyway, if you don't mind my saying.
 
I'm not sure Trek ever considered Vulcan repression something to aspire to. As far back as "This Side of Paradise," written by D.C. Fontana herself, Spock was describing it as a self-imposed purgatory.

Trek's attitude toward Vulcan culture was always more ambigous than some fans seem to realize. Spock represented one extreme, as did McCoy, with Kirk representing both reason and emotion.

It was about synthesis, not the triumph of logic over emotion.

And I admit to being being one of those fans to some degree. But my point is: Where's the synthesis now? NuSpock now apparently just drops logic completely whenever its most needed (Old Spock isn't any better). There is no longer a balance either within him or between the three original main characters. This isn't so bad in the later TOS movies because the ground work has already been done and having an older Spock be more balanced doesn't undermine that too much. Its weird that they should restart TOS yet just carry on from the later movies with respect to Spock's "enlightenment" and proceeded to take it to the opposite extreme of effective non-existence (at least when it matters).


Heck, whenever Kirk found a "perfect" society that had eliminated negative emotions, he usually blew it up! At the end of "Paradise," he regards an outbreak of unruly human emotions, including a couple of fistfights, as a good thing!

And then, of course, there was "The Enemy Within," in which Kirk discovered that he needed his negative emotions to be a fully-functioning human being.

Yep and many Spock-centric stories are about him finding the human way is the "better" way.

It is hardly surprising that human authors would write stories that draw those kind of conclusions or have those attitudes to Spocks character. The fantastic thing for me was that at least Spock represented the alternative view.


It's funny. I've had this argument before, on this very board. Spock is such an appealing character that a surprising number of fans seem to think that Star Trek endorses the Vulcan Way as a role model for humanity . . . whereas the show itself actually had a very ambiguous attitude towards the idea of repressing human emotions. (On TOS, that's something evil computers usually want to do.)

Even Roddenberry didn't believe that Trek was about placing logic above emotion--or else why would he have had Spock reject Kolihnar and have his ephiphany with V'Ger in the one and only Trek movie he had a hand in . . . ?

If nuSpock's decision to selectively dump logic when convenient in ST09 is another typically ham-fisted imitation of previous Trek (Spock Prime's "epiphany" in this case) then my argument is that they once again got the wrong end of the stick and have thrown the baby out with the bath water.

Or to put it another way: Roddenberry may have been trying to find a balance between logic and emotion (perhaps in response to changing social attitudes?) as you advocate. But you don't seem to realise that this is not what ST09 does (regarding the Spocks at least).


Most Star Trek aliens are presented as lacking when compared to humans. The humans may learn a lesson along the way but it's the aliens who as most often presented as the ones most in need of an attitude adjustment. There are exceptions of couse but this is the way that most stories play out.

Well Spock will no longer be putting the Vulcan point of view. Not in any meaningful way. Not when things get tough. Or so it would now seem.


I certainly didn't see "Put aside logic, do what feels right." as "completing the subversion of Rodenberry's Trek":wtf:

Perhaps you weren't in a position at that point to appreciate that that's what was happening. But now you have been exposed to that view. So on behalf of Mr Blackman and myself, you’re welcome. :lol:

I saw a frank admission from a guy who, looking back on his long life, realizes the way he chose may not have been the best or most fulfilling. Spock is a hero, but he's not infallable. Irrespective of our entertainment watching him trying to be the universe's #1 Vulcan, I can believe him looking back at his life and thinking, "all that termoil and angst and stress, trying to be something that deep down I'm not, it wasn't worth it. I wish I'd realized it long before V'Ger."

The point is that statement doesn’t represent any sort of "balance", it suggests an abdication of logic and as I’ve mentioned it wasn’t even necessary because logic would have arrived at the same solution! :vulcan: He wasn't even using reason in deciding to reject logic! So my guess, when combined with the earlier dialogue with Serek and later abandonment of logic/reason when dealing with Nero (when it was really needed), is that Robert Blackman is correct: we have an agenda here. The writers thought the audience would prefer the warm fuzzy Spock so they fast tracked that outcome. In their unholy rush, they forgot the emotion/logic balance issue and that what they were doing wasn't actually required.

Like someone mentioned re Spock Prime’s efforts to "engineer" the Kirk/Spock relationship, we have another attempt to short circuit history. This may be good for the individual characters, if it works, but its bad for Star Trek as it removes an important device from its tool box and makes the whole thing more bland and uninteresting in anything other than it's more limited aspects.


The Valeris quote was from Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country. Therefore, I naturally interpreted your criticism of it in the context of the Prime timeline, after the events of TMP.

Actually I didn't recall where it was used and I don't think that was referenced, but it makes no difference because my point is that despite the new start, they seem to want to carry on from the last TOS movie, or later, in this respect which misses an important part of TOS's value IMO.
 
Nerys Myk said:
Yep and many Spock-centric stories are about him finding the human way is the "better" way.
It is hardly surprising that human authors would write stories that draw those kind of conclusions or have those attitudes to Spocks character. The fantastic thing for me was that at least Spock represented the alternative view.
But that alternative view is only presented to show it's faults. Spock was created to do this. His views are not actually non-human or alien but just one aspect of humanity's. Humans are complex. We can be as cold and logical as Vulcans, as violent as Klingons, as paranoid as Romulans, as greedy as Ferengi, as Spiritual as Bajorans and as oppressive as Cardassians. It's our battles between those urges that Star Trek tries to illustrate.
 
I'm not sure Trek ever considered Vulcan repression something to aspire to. As far back as "This Side of Paradise," written by D.C. Fontana herself, Spock was describing it as a self-imposed purgatory.

Trek's attitude toward Vulcan culture was always more ambigous than some fans seem to realize. Spock represented one extreme, as did McCoy, with Kirk representing both reason and emotion.

It was about synthesis, not the triumph of logic over emotion.

And I admit to being being one of those fans to some degree. But my point is: Where's the synthesis now? NuSpock now apparently just drops logic completely whenever its most needed (Old Spock isn't any better). There is no longer a balance either within him or between the three original main characters. This isn't so bad in the later TOS movies because the ground work has already been done and having an older Spock be more balanced doesn't undermine that too much. Its weird that they should restart TOS yet just carry on from the later movies with respect to Spock's "enlightenment" and proceeded to take it to the opposite extreme of effective non-existence (at least when it matters).

<snip>
Remember, though (flashback to July 2008):
Zach Quinto said:
We visit [Spock] at a time when he’s not as in control of his balance...

That imbalance (as well as OldSpock's state of "emotional compromise") was an important element of the story being told in that movie. I'm not so sure you ought to expect the imbalance to be permanent, continuing throughout the subsequent movies to the same degree. Indeed, I'd look for the opposite—movement toward greater balance—to be a story thread from here on.
 
Spock was pretty emotional early on at least through Enemy Within. I would expect most people will have multiple points in their life where they are on one side or the other as far as emotional balance...a half Vulcan/half Human even moreso. Spock probably went back and forth multiple times, and before V'ger and his maturing (and dying and coming back to life) throughout the movies, we only saw a small part of his in universe character.

I think Spock probably spent his whole life struggling back and forth and refined that balance throughout his life. Old Spock's line of advice in the end is only one of about a thousand considerations he's had to think about, granted from his future self, but still just more advice to add to his current thought process.

Yes, old Spock wasn't always the well balanced person we saw by the end of TNG and this movie, but neither Spock was always the cold logical person either. He's always been half Vulcan/half Human and always struggled.
 
It is hardly surprising that human authors would write stories that draw those kind of conclusions or have those attitudes to Spocks character. The fantastic thing for me was that at least Spock represented the alternative view.
But that alternative view is only presented to show it's faults. Spock was created to do this. His views are not actually non-human or alien but just one aspect of humanity's. Humans are complex. We can be as cold and logical as Vulcans, as violent as Klingons, as paranoid as Romulans, as greedy as Ferengi, as Spiritual as Bajorans and as oppressive as Cardassians. It's our battles between those urges that Star Trek tries to illustrate.

And what I'm saying is that we need Spock to continue to advocate the reasonable conponent of human nature. I certainly don't believe Spock was created to show how faulty reason is. :cardie: It may not always be the way to go but I don't want Kirk trying to convince Spock to be logical!


I'm not sure Trek ever considered Vulcan repression something to aspire to. As far back as "This Side of Paradise," written by D.C. Fontana herself, Spock was describing it as a self-imposed purgatory.

Trek's attitude toward Vulcan culture was always more ambigous than some fans seem to realize. Spock represented one extreme, as did McCoy, with Kirk representing both reason and emotion.

It was about synthesis, not the triumph of logic over emotion.

And I admit to being being one of those fans to some degree. But my point is: Where's the synthesis now? NuSpock now apparently just drops logic completely whenever its most needed (Old Spock isn't any better). There is no longer a balance either within him or between the three original main characters. This isn't so bad in the later TOS movies because the ground work has already been done and having an older Spock be more balanced doesn't undermine that too much. Its weird that they should restart TOS yet just carry on from the later movies with respect to Spock's "enlightenment" and proceeded to take it to the opposite extreme of effective non-existence (at least when it matters).

<snip>
Remember, though (flashback to July 2008):
Zach Quinto said:
We visit [Spock] at a time when he’s not as in control of his balance...
That imbalance (as well as OldSpock's state of "emotional compromise") was an important element of the story being told in that movie. I'm not so sure you ought to expect the imbalance to be permanent, continuing throughout the subsequent movies to the same degree. Indeed, I'd look for the opposite—movement toward greater balance—to be a story thread from here on.

Well, we have had both nuSpock's father and his older self "undermining" his Vulcan side, even though I think SP says "on this occasion" (beats me what he thought was special about that occasion). Besides, a "balanced Spock" (whatever that really means in practical terms) is just post 60's/70's political correctness, not something a TOS imitation should have any part of, IMO. As I say, a mellowed Spock might be bearable in later years but not now.

However I agree with you that what they do with this compromised Spock will be of some interest.


Spock was pretty emotional early on at least through Enemy Within. I would expect most people will have multiple points in their life where they are on one side or the other as far as emotional balance...a half Vulcan/half Human even moreso. Spock probably went back and forth multiple times, and before V'ger and his maturing (and dying and coming back to life) throughout the movies, we only saw a small part of his in universe character.

I think Spock probably spent his whole life struggling back and forth and refined that balance throughout his life. Old Spock's line of advice in the end is only one of about a thousand considerations he's had to think about, granted from his future self, but still just more advice to add to his current thought process.

Yes, old Spock wasn't always the well balanced person we saw by the end of TNG and this movie, but neither Spock was always the cold logical person either. He's always been half Vulcan/half Human and always struggled.

I would imagine the early episodes were a bedding in period for Spock's character. Certainly the first two pilots were. As such they probably shouldn't be taken as a indication of his "true" character. I think it is reasonable to take those kind of considerations in to account.

Perhaps you can correct me but the only time I remember Spock losing his cool without external interference was during Amok Time and that was clamped down on pretty quickly. I suppose he could have done that sort of thing a lot more when no one was filming him, but I'm not inclined to assume that.
 
Although the RL reason may be simply not having his character traits figured out yet (Spock was basically human with pointed ears in "The Cage", then had Number One's personality grafted on in "Where No Man..." when that character was dropped), flashbacks in "The Minagerie" show Spock smiling at pretty space flowers. They could have edited that and other emotional bits out if they wanted. Spock's ultracool personality was well-established by then in the series proper, but they intentionally kept those glimpses of emotion in to show how he'd changed and matured in the past 13 years.

Many novels set during the pre-TOS era, like D.C Fontana's Vulcan's Glory feature a more vulnerable young Spock, whose emotions are closer to the surface.
 
Plus, being stuck on a starship with emotional humans for a five-year mission is bound to rub off a bit, or at least encourage you to explore your human side more than you would among Vulcans.

It's interesting. I know that 60's episodic series didn't really have story arcs so this is mostly just a coincidence, but I was watching Season 3 in airdate order a while back and it dawned on me that you can actually infer a bit of a logical progression there:

"Requiem for Methuselah" ends with McCoy giving Spock, who is troubled by Kirk's grief over Rayna's death, a big speech about how Spock will never know or understand love. For once, Spock doesn't fire back with a dry riposte and is left pondering McCoy's remarks instead.

An episode later, in "The Way of Eden," Spock's views are challenged again by the space hippies, whom he seems strangely intrigued with. Maybe Spock is still mulling over what McCoy said? And considering alternatives?

Then, in "The Cloud Minders," he practically flirts with Droxine. Critics have commented that this seems rather out of character, particularly with the way Spock was portrayed in the earlier seasons, but maybe he had simply taken McCoy's words, a mere two episodes earlier, to heart? And wasn't exactly the same person he was before?

Looking at the actual episodes, one can argue that Spock was evolving over the course of the five-year-mission, in part because of his interactions with his human crewmates . . . . .
 
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Again, I'm playing devil's advocate here, but the thought has crossed my mind. Unlike some die hard fans I really do enjoy the new timeline with all the possibilities therein. I'm excited about the new adventures of the starship Enterprise, where her ongoing mission is to explore new worlds.. to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no man, or no one has gone before...I came up with that phrase all by myself! ;) Anyway...is an alternate timeline even necessary? I mean why not cover the original 5 year mission, but just expand on that 5 year mission. Tell stories of the things that we didn't see on the aforementioned original 5 year mission? Introduce new races and new stories. But then again I can understand the need of a new timeline to explain physical differences whether it be to the new crew like Kirk's eyes being blue now instead of the hazel green eyes that Shatner has, or the differing look of the Enterprise. What do you think...thanks for all the replies. I love it!! :bolian: The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few...or the one...(thought of that one myself too! ;) )

No. They should have just made a new TV series about Voyeger or annother star ship set in the Kirk era. No need for a new timeline. Shatner will always be Kirk, Chris Pine is not. Chris is not the real Kirk, although he played it well. If they really needed to bring Kirk back, why not a prequel to the origional series before Pike lost command? Should have made a film abour Pike going crazy or something and Kirk takes command. Or why not make a spin off about Pike?
 
No. They should have just made a new TV series about Voyeger or annother star ship set in the Kirk era. No need for a new timeline. Shatner will always be Kirk, Chris Pine is not. Chris is not the real Kirk, although he played it well. If they really needed to bring Kirk back, why not a prequel to the origional series before Pike lost command? Should have made a film abour Pike going crazy or something and Kirk takes command. Or why not make a spin off about Pike?

[YT]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fu656gGkhI[/YT]
 
Again, I'm playing devil's advocate here, but the thought has crossed my mind. Unlike some die hard fans I really do enjoy the new timeline with all the possibilities therein. I'm excited about the new adventures of the starship Enterprise, where her ongoing mission is to explore new worlds.. to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no man, or no one has gone before...I came up with that phrase all by myself! ;) Anyway...is an alternate timeline even necessary? I mean why not cover the original 5 year mission, but just expand on that 5 year mission. Tell stories of the things that we didn't see on the aforementioned original 5 year mission? Introduce new races and new stories. But then again I can understand the need of a new timeline to explain physical differences whether it be to the new crew like Kirk's eyes being blue now instead of the hazel green eyes that Shatner has, or the differing look of the Enterprise. What do you think...thanks for all the replies. I love it!! :bolian: The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few...or the one...(thought of that one myself too! ;) )

No. They should have just made a new TV series about Voyeger or annother star ship set in the Kirk era. No need for a new timeline. Shatner will always be Kirk, Chris Pine is not. Chris is not the real Kirk, although he played it well. If they really needed to bring Kirk back, why not a prequel to the origional series before Pike lost command? Should have made a film abour Pike going crazy or something and Kirk takes command. Or why not make a spin off about Pike?

Problem: Star Trek was failing due to continuity bloat.
Solution: Reboot and Reintroduce with updated cosmetics.

Problem: How to please existing Star Trek fans, and ensure reboot is part of Star Trek's greater whole?
Solution: Make the reboot within existing continuity, and get a prestigious character to pass the batton.

Essentially, they had to tackle the two issues above, and chose the most viable solution.
 
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