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Was there a need for an alternate timeline?

Sorry, but TOS was mid 20th Century Human behavior masquerading as the 23rd century. It was a commentary on then current events not a prediction/blueprint of the future.

I find that most SF is like that.

RPJOB said:
Whatever our lives might have been, if the time continuum was disrupted...
our destinies have changed.

And this:

Going back in time you changed all our lives.

And this:

The contrary, Nero's very presence has altered the flow of history, beginning with the attack on the USS Kelvin, culminating in the events of today, thereby creating an entire new chain of incidents, that cannot be anticipated by either party.

An alternate reality."

Yeah, their lives and destinies have changed - because they're in a new timeline. Nothing in the above indicates that the prime timeline was changed or no longer exists.

That's very true. However, there's also nothing to say that it does still exist. Time travel has worked a number of different ways in Trek, including overwriting the existing timeline (First Contact, City on the Edge of Forever, Yesterday's Enterprise). The lines CAN be taken either way. I'm not saying that one or the other is what happened, just that we don't have enough information to say one way or the other.
 
We have what the guys who wrote the lines say they mean. Other than the characters visiting the original timeline ( not likely ) they have no real way to address in-universe.
 
Sorry, but TOS was mid 20th Century Human behavior masquerading as the 23rd century. It was a commentary on then current events not a prediction/blueprint of the future.

I find that most SF is like that.

RPJOB said:
Whatever our lives might have been, if the time continuum was disrupted...
our destinies have changed.

And this:

Going back in time you changed all our lives.

And this:

The contrary, Nero's very presence has altered the flow of history, beginning with the attack on the USS Kelvin, culminating in the events of today, thereby creating an entire new chain of incidents, that cannot be anticipated by either party.

An alternate reality."

Yeah, their lives and destinies have changed - because they're in a new timeline. Nothing in the above indicates that the prime timeline was changed or no longer exists.

That's very true. However, there's also nothing to say that it does still exist. Time travel has worked a number of different ways in Trek, including overwriting the existing timeline (First Contact, City on the Edge of Forever, Yesterday's Enterprise). The lines CAN be taken either way. I'm not saying that one or the other is what happened, just that we don't have enough information to say one way or the other.

Wrong ...

Uhura: Alternate Reality.
Spock: Precisely.

Circumstantial evidence:
Spick Prime remembering different circumstances regarding Kirk's father.

The conversation between Spock and Spock Prime acknowlege Spock Prime's deception of Kirk. He "implied".
 
If they write an ambiguous line, coming back in off screen to clarify doesn't alter what's on the screen. It's like Spock's line about there only being 10,000 Vulcans left. A later movie can show that Spock was confused or wan't counting colonies or dropped a zero or two. However, the movie clearly stated 10,000. It also mentioned Vulcans being an endangered species twice and has old Spock finding a new planet for the Vulcans to live on rather than settling on an existing colony. The evidence points to Spock being correct regardless of what the write says after the fact.

It's what on the screen that counts.
 
Wrong ...

Uhura: Alternate Reality.
Spock: Precisely.

Circumstantial evidence:
Spick Prime remembering different circumstances regarding Kirk's father.

The conversation between Spock and Spock Prime acknowlege Spock Prime's deception of Kirk. He "implied".

In COTEOF the Enterprise crew remembered their timeline even after the ship disappeared. In Yesterday's Enterprise, Guinan knew that something was wrong even when nobody else did. In First Contact, the crew knew that something was wrong when they saw that Earth had been borgified even thought they and the ship still existed.
 
Author intent is good for getting background on a particular scene but it doesn't override what actually makes it to the screen.

Well, when the authors choose to override their own premise in a canonical way, then you can fret about it. Until then, what's the point in worrying?

However, the movie clearly stated 10,000.

Yeah, I loved that scene where they took an urgent census of the surviving population. :rommie:
 
However, the movie clearly stated 10,000.

Yeah, I loved that scene where they took an urgent census of the surviving population. :rommie:

Like Spock has never pulled a precise estimate off the top of his head before!

"Our odds of survival are approximately 753.23 to one, Captain!"
I always liked:

SPOCK: One million seven hundred seventy one thousand five hundred sixty one...
BARIS: ...
KIRK: *look*
SPOCK: That's assuming one tribble, multiplying with an average litter of ten, producing a new generation every twelve hours over a period of three days.
 
Like Spock has never pulled a precise estimate off the top of his head before!

"Our odds of survival are approximately 753.23 to one, Captain!"

But his "estimates" are supposed to be "correct". This time even the writers had to admit he was wrong! :wtf: Clearly this universe has already corrupted his reasoning ability. Heck, he even tells nuSpock not to rely on logic! :lol: No wonder he didn't want to risk that "warp around the sun time travel trick".

PS: "Correct" = never allowing anyone to be able to prove otherwise. ;)
 
Like Spock has never pulled a precise estimate off the top of his head before!

"Our odds of survival are approximately 753.23 to one, Captain!"

But his "estimates" are supposed to be "correct". This time even the writers had to admit he was wrong! :wtf: Clearly this universe has already corrupted his reasoning ability. Heck, he even tells nuSpock not to rely on logic!


Well, he was emotionally compromised . . . .

And Spock was having second thoughts about relying too much on logic as far back as his encounter with V'Ger . . . and had come to a much more balanced attitude by the sixth movie.

"Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris."
 
Well, he was emotionally compromised . . . .
So was I as I (somehow) left the theatre! :rommie:
 
And Spock was having second thoughts about relying too much on logic as far back as his encounter with V'Ger . . . and had come to a much more balanced attitude by the sixth movie.

And Star Trek would have been the poorer for it, but they got away with that because they had done Spock so well originally IMO.

"Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris."

A very human-centric attitude anyway, if you don't mind my saying. ;) It's not as though most of us are always able to maintain a proper balance between emotions and reason/logic when it matters. I'm against anything that waters down the reason side of Spock, particularly this early on. Best to save that indulgence for his retirement.
 
Besides, Spock Prime's advice would have carried more weight if it hadn't been eminently logical for one Spock to stay in Star Fleet while the other took care of resettling the remaining Vulcans. There were, as he pointed out, two of them. So why exactly did nuSpock have to put logic aside again?
 
A very human-centric attitude anyway, if you don't mind my saying.


Well, he is half-human . . . so why shouldn't he finally embrace that part of himself?

After TMP, embracing his human half is completely in-character.

Exactly. One of the few good scenes in Movie #5 was when he revealed his character growth to Sybok, explaining that he was no longer as conflicted or ashamed about his human heritage as he had been when he was younger . . . .
 
Well, he is half-human . . . so why shouldn't he finally embrace that part of himself?

After TMP, embracing his human half is completely in-character.

Exactly. One of the few good scenes in Movie #5 was when he revealed his character growth to Sybok, explaining that he was no longer as conflicted or ashamed about his human heritage as he had been when he was younger . . . .

First, this is prequel (sorta), so it’s before TMP. But even if you see diluting Spock’s personality as an ironic form of "character growth", where’s the fire already? See my argument about saving that stuff until he retires (so it can be confused with senility :p).

Second, this is science fiction folks, not Mills and Boon (well actually …). Spock is one of the best characters ever developed and you guys want to send him to therapy! :eek: He can see a shrink on his own time.

Third, that conflicted/ashamed business is just more human chauvinist propaganda. No pain, no gain (not actually a position I necessarily agree with, but it works with my current argument :lol:)! How do we know his Vulcan side doesn’t make so-called "over compensation" a necessity? Certainly, when he let it go he became just another vengeful human (with pointy ears of course). Why would you want that? There are already "straight" humans behaving badly in the movie. NuSpock is very definitely "emotionally compromised". Hopefully it’s not permanent. :vulcan:

Actually I find it hard to believe I have to point out the value of repressed internal conflict and drama (given it’s a way of seeing Spock I learnt here myself)! Even if you don’t like the Spock character as originally presented in TOS (which seems to be the case :confused:), you can’t deny his unique importance to the show. But you guys want to water that down to barely more than a bland nothingness because what? It will give him a more "healthy" world view? He’s a fictional character! Or do you think the original Spock was fine, but we’ve been there and done that, so the way to change things up is to make him more … like everyone else?

So far in the movie Kirk isn’t Kirk (yet?), Chekov isn’t Chekov, Scotty definitely isn’t Scotty, Uhura isn’t Uhura, Sulu is indeterminate (no pun intended) and now Spock isn’t Spock. Some of you guys must really love Bones.

All of which ignores the fact we don’t see a balanced Spock here where "Logic is the beginning of wisdom". We see a Spock who abandons logic and reason in favour of emotion and vengeance and a kind of intellectual hedonism.

Despite a few minor quibbles, Robert H. Blackman sums up some of these issues:

The audience receives the final message of the movie when the Spock of the original timeline converses with his younger self. "Do yourself a favor," he advises, "put aside logic and do what feels right." Such advice is admittedly a step up from Kirk’s inclination to destroy anyone unwilling to accept his help; nonetheless, one can hardly imagine a less Kantian message to crown the brave new timeline of Star Trek than Spock’s new therapeutic mantra.

Spock’s advice to put aside logic and to follow feelings, therefore, makes the subversion complete. Roddenberry’s character who most represents Kantian hopes for human reason and progress rejects his rational, Vulcan side. He becomes a convert to a new world, in which rationality ceases to be a guiding principle or goal. The implication is clear: the old Spock will rebuild and shape the remnants of Vulcan society in a new image that embraces the therapeutic over the rational.

In the final analysis, the new edgier characters in the reboot are merely reminiscent of the characters of STOS. They embody new ideals that do not reflect Rodenberry’s hope for human progress based on reason. Star Trek (2009) depicts a dangerous world, a world that pulses with demands for justice based upon feelings rather than universal rationality. It is a world in which error has no rights and vengeance is taken for granted. Perhaps, it is simply the case that Roddenberry’s Star Trek no longer resonates with audiences of a post-9/11 world. However, given all the possible parallel universes to which the original Spock could have returned, it is lamentable that it was to a post-Roddenberry universe that the creators of Star Trek (2009) chose to send him.

From: "A Post-Roddenberry Star Trek" by Robert H. Blackman
http://thecresset.org/2009/Michaelmas/Blackman_M09.html

*** Edit: By the way, being "… no longer as conflicted or ashamed about his human heritage as he had been when he was younger …" doesn’t mean it is right or necessary for him to embrace it in his own life.
 
I'm not sure Trek ever considered Vulcan repression something to aspire to. As far back as "This Side of Paradise," written by D.C. Fontana herself, Spock was describing it as a self-imposed purgatory.

Trek's attitude toward Vulcan culture was always more ambigous than some fans seem to realize. Spock represented one extreme, as did McCoy, with Kirk representing both reason and emotion.

It was about synthesis, not the triumph of logic over emotion.

Heck, whenever Kirk found a "perfect" society that had eliminated negative emotions, he usually blew it up! At the end of "Paradise," he regards an outbreak of unruly human emotions, including a couple of fistfights, as a good thing!

And then, of course, there was "The Enemy Within," in which Kirk discovered that he needed his negative emotions to be a fully-functioning human being.
 
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