Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility be?

[Nerys Ghemor]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

BTW, regarding abstaining from sex, there is nothing wrong or deviant about doing so. It in many cases, it is a decision that one makes. I also agree with the poster that said there is no reason that advocating abstinence need omit explanation of other methods of birth control. IMHO it should be taught with full information on birth control as well as full information on STD's, consequences of unplanned pregnancies (to include financial, relational, and anything else that arises because of it to oneself or to the child), and so on. The best decisions, after all, are made with full access to information.

In certain cases, it can actually be a matter of orientation. It is possible to have an asexual orientation that makes one disinterested in sex (or perhaps only able to just tolerate it to a degree for the sake of the other aspects of the relationship). Asexuals don't have anything wrong with them.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

Even if embryos could be implanted I doubt very much there would be enough women volunteering to take all the unwanted embryos. Even now not all donor eggs left over from IVF are used.

At least personally, that right there is why I would not use IVF. I would not wish to create disposable life when there are children already born who are in desperate need of homes. A child would not need to have my genetic code for me to love him or her as my own.

If artificial wombs could be used who would raise the children?

Women who have health conditions preventing them a child to term, gay couples, etc.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

It takes two to make the choice to have sex. It should take two to raise the child. Neither party should be able to abdicate the responsibility resulting from their choices.

This is a nice ideal but sometimes you're better off with one party abdicating. I know a few teenage mums who didn't put the father on the birth certificate. In doing so they give up any child support but in these cases the father was on government payments chronically and would only be contributing 5 dollars a week from that. If the father actually wanted to be a part of the kids life they could ask for a paternity test and pursue access but in every case they have not bothered.

 

[Mr Silver]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

Murdering the child because of circumstances out of his or her control is wholly unacceptable to me.

I don't agree with abortion, but not for any religious related reasons, it's just because I wouldn't feel comfortable agreeing to go ahead with abortion if I was in the situation where an unexpected pregnancy cropped up and my partner was considering abortion. I couldn't make a woman NOT have an abortion because it's her body, but I would strongly argue for going ahead with the pregnancy because it just doesn't sit right with me - I can't explain why!

I don't think we have a right to tell anybody that they are murdering their unborn child by choosing to go down that path. I understand how you feel about it, but I just think it's unfair to apply murder to something so incredibly complex.

I will always recommend adoption over anything else to a friend or family member who just cannot face being a parent because there are people out there who would do anything to have a child but cannot do so naturally.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

Personally, I would like to hope that research would someday allow such unwanted children to be implanted into surrogate mothers, or even the women themselves who are unable to have children. I suspect that an artificial womb is much further away than those procedures. But that is another avenue I would like to hope could be pursued. If those procedures could be perfected within a reasonable degree, then all possible justifications for abortion aside from a serious health issue would be eliminated.

It would be interesting to see if the abortion rate went down. The pressure would certainly be on the mother to have their embryo transferred rather than aborted. However many women would not want to have a biological child somewhere in the world that they had consciously given away. I don't think everyone would make this choice.

 

[Miss Chicken]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

Did I say the majority did? I'm just saying that it can be avoided relatively simply. I know quite a few situations like this. There is a very large loophole in the law and not a lot they can do about it at this point.

No you didn't say that but you did say that you tell women not to rely on child support despite the fact that the majority of women do received it without there being many problems.

It is often unwise for a woman not to try for child support because she might lose supporting parents payments if she doesn't try to get child support.

30 years ago a man could get out of child support by chucking in his job and going on unemployment benefits (as my ex-husband did). I would have had to find out myself if my ex-husband found work and then I would have had to meet the costs of filing for child support once I knew he had a job which he could have chucked in as soon as I tried to get child support from him. At least that loophole has been closed.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

I couldn't make a woman NOT have an abortion because it's her body, but I would strongly argue for going ahead with the pregnancy because it just doesn't sit right with me - I can't explain why!

Because you partook in creating life. It's simple respect for life.

I don't think we have a right to tell anybody that they are murdering their unborn child by choosing to go down that path. I understand how you feel about it, but I just think it's unfair to apply murder to something so incredibly complex.

To me it also ties to what I feel about the death penalty. I believe it should only be applied to those who have a) made a decision to commit a heinous crime, b) were fully capable of making said decision and comprehending said decision and the consequences for it, and c) have been proven guilty (and I believe that without DNA evidence proof is insufficient for execution and the state should be legally bound to carry out DNA testing in capital cases).

An infant is incapable of making a decision to commit a heinous crime, and we are treating him or her, with an abortion, as if he or she has willfully done a terrible and cruel thing to his or her mother by subjecting her to his or her existence. That strikes me as very wrong; I have a problem with being punished for crimes one has not committed or been able to comprehend.

I will always recommend adoption over anything else to a friend or family member who just cannot face being a parent because there are people out there who would do anything to have a child but cannot do so naturally.

Indeed. My parents had extreme difficulty conceiving me and they very nearly ended up adopting except that my mom finally became pregnant with me, while going through the initial stages of submitting adoption paperwork.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

Personally, I would like to hope that research would someday allow such unwanted children to be implanted into surrogate mothers, or even the women themselves who are unable to have children. I suspect that an artificial womb is much further away than those procedures. But that is another avenue I would like to hope could be pursued. If those procedures could be perfected within a reasonable degree, then all possible justifications for abortion aside from a serious health issue would be eliminated.

It would be interesting to see if the abortion rate went down. The pressure would certainly be on the mother to have their embryo transferred rather than aborted. However many women would not want to have a biological child somewhere in the world that they had consciously given away. I don't think everyone would make this choice.

I would imagine in the face of such technology, the legal landscape would change immensely. To be capable of intervening in and preserving life outside the mother's body at such an early age--not to mention the legalities that would have to come into being to prevent making salable commodities out of the transferred children (they'd have to be prevented from being legally equivalent to animals or slaves)--would necessitate the definition of life being clarified such that it would be immediately after conception. I'm not sure how the current framework in Roe v. Wade would stand up in that environment. I think the whole thing would have to go to trial again and a whole new ruling with different circumstances and restrictions would be handed down.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

Did I say the majority did? I'm just saying that it can be avoided relatively simply. I know quite a few situations like this. There is a very large loophole in the law and not a lot they can do about it at this point.

No you didn't say that but you did say that you tell women not to rely on child support despite the fact that the majority of women do received it without there being many problems.

It is often unwise for a woman not to try for child support because she might lose supporting parents payments if she doesn't try to get child support.

30 years ago a man could get out of child support by chucking in his job and going on unemployment benefits (as my ex-husband did). I would have had to find out myself if my ex-husband found work and then I would have had to meet the costs of filing for child support once I knew he had a job which he could have chucked in as soon as I tried to get child support from him. At least that loophole has been closed.

You only pay a pittance of child support if you are full time on centrelink benefits so it's nothing any woman should depend on. I think a friend of mine gets about 12 dollars a fortnight child support from the drug addled father who is on disability for being a drug addict.

So I stand by my comment, make sure if you are going to raise your kid as a single parent you set yourself up without depending on the father to either be there and take the kid or pay child support. This is especially pertinent to young and teen mothers where the father has not spent years in the family home prior to a divorce, building up a relationship with the kid.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

Personally, I would like to hope that research would someday allow such unwanted children to be implanted into surrogate mothers, or even the women themselves who are unable to have children. I suspect that an artificial womb is much further away than those procedures. But that is another avenue I would like to hope could be pursued. If those procedures could be perfected within a reasonable degree, then all possible justifications for abortion aside from a serious health issue would be eliminated.

It would be interesting to see if the abortion rate went down. The pressure would certainly be on the mother to have their embryo transferred rather than aborted. However many women would not want to have a biological child somewhere in the world that they had consciously given away. I don't think everyone would make this choice.

I would imagine in the face of such technology, the legal landscape would change immensely. To be capable of intervening in and preserving life outside the mother's body at such an early age--not to mention the legalities that would have to come into being to prevent making salable commodities out of the transferred children (they'd have to be prevented from being legally equivalent to animals or slaves)--would necessitate the definition of life being clarified such that it would be immediately after conception. I'm not sure how the current framework in Roe v. Wade would stand up in that environment. I think the whole thing would have to go to trial again and a whole new ruling with different circumstances and restrictions would be handed down.

I'd like to think that if we actually got the point where we could transfer an embryo to an artificial womb and grow it to maturity we would also have easy to use 100% effective birth control.

 

[Miss Chicken]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

If unwanted embryos were able to be transferred to other women's wombs or else grown in artificial wombs would that mean far less possibility of older children being adopted at all?

I am more concerned that homes be found for children already born than homes be found for early-stage embryos.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

I was under the impression that the main thing preventing older children from being adopted (in this country) was that the parents won't terminate their rights and prefer the child to stay in foster care.

 

[Miss Chicken]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

Which is why babies/toddlers/children are often adopted from overseas.

If embryos could easily be implanted what would happened to the little Chinese girls, African children who are adopted by Westerners today?

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

Lets assume that the 100% effective and easy to use birth control now available in the artificial womb future was also in use in China and Africa. You know, because the future is all shiny and enlightened.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

I'd like to think that if we actually got the point where we could transfer an embryo to an artificial womb and grow it to maturity we would also have easy to use 100% effective birth control.

I don't think there's a such thing as 100% in medicine. And when it comes to people's choices, it's far less than 100%. You can have all the best methods in the world and they won't do anything if you choose not to use them.

One would hope that older children who haven't been placed in homes would be less common if the adoption process occurs prior to coming to term. That said, I expect there would still be cases where children had to be taken from the home, and that foster care would still exist. I would hope that a culture that no longer was so stuck on one's children having to have one's genetic code would also be more open to adopting older children.

 

[Miss Chicken]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

Lets assume that the 100% effective and easy to use birth control now available in the artificial womb future was also in use in China and Africa. You know, because the future is all shiny and enlightened.

Even if that was true it wouldn't stop unwanted girl babies from being aborted or abandoned around the world.

Nor would it stopped children from being orphaned around the world.

I don't think that the whole world will be shiny and enlightened in my lifetime.

 

[Marc]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

It would be interesting to see if the abortion rate went down. The pressure would certainly be on the mother to have their embryo transferred rather than aborted. However many women would not want to have a biological child somewhere in the world that they had consciously given away. I don't think everyone would make this choice.

I would imagine in the face of such technology, the legal landscape would change immensely. To be capable of intervening in and preserving life outside the mother's body at such an early age--not to mention the legalities that would have to come into being to prevent making salable commodities out of the transferred children (they'd have to be prevented from being legally equivalent to animals or slaves)--would necessitate the definition of life being clarified such that it would be immediately after conception. I'm not sure how the current framework in Roe v. Wade would stand up in that environment. I think the whole thing would have to go to trial again and a whole new ruling with different circumstances and restrictions would be handed down.

I'd like to think that if we actually got the point where we could transfer an embryo to an artificial womb and grow it to maturity we would also have easy to use 100% effective birth control.

Oh Brave New World indeed.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

It would be a shame if we got that brave new world and yet whole nations were still so poor they have to give up their children.

 

[Thestral]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

An infant... we are treating him or her, with an abortion...

Embryoes and fetuses aren't infants.

 

[Knight Templar]

Re: Unexpected/unwanted pregnancies: what should guys' responsibility

Unless I've read the thread incorrectly, you're the first person to mention "religious" at all.

So, your position is that sex, marriage, and abortion are purely civil affairs and that religions have precisely nothing to say on the matter. Further, that they can shut about about gay marriage, sex, abortion, and a host of other issues that the religious hypocrites in the country are forever nattering on about.

Answer the question you keep avoiding.

Is this the question you are referring to?

My position was is that there are perfectly legitimate positions to take in favor of abstinence that have nothing to do with religious beliefs.