Spock's Rank?

[Sam_I_Am]

It may result in a slapped wrist to resurrect this topic, but I don't think starting another one would attract the people who contributed to this topic in the first place...

I just noticed on Memory Alpha that it gives a reason for the seeming confusion for Spock's rank:

Spock, as well as a few other lieutenant commanders seen in The Original Series (such as Benjamin Finney), are very clearly called Lieutenant Commander while wearing the insignia of a Commander. While sometimes viewed as a costumer error, the late original series costume designer William Ware Theiss stated in interviews that this was very much deliberate and that the practice of Lieutenant Commanders wearing the insignia for a full Commander mirrored the US military concept of "brevet" or "spot" promotions given to officers due to the nature of their billets.

 

[MacLeod]

I like to think Starfleet made the Enterprise-A's commmand crew a special case--keep all them troublemakers on one ship.

As opposed to assigning them the ground roles?

Kirk could easily have gone back to Chief of Starfleet Operations.
Scotty make him Chief of Starfleet Engineering. etc..

But perhaps keeping them together buy the era of at TFF was a good PR move.


Lets face it Kirks demotion to Captain was little more than a slap on the wrists. It gave Kirk exactly what he wanted the command of a starship, and the President more or less said that was were he worked best, so Starfleet got back one of it's top starship commanders. And to the Klingons, well we did disipline him by demoting him.

Spock had no desire to leave Kirk's side.

 

[J.T.B.]

It may result in a slapped wrist to resurrect this topic, but I don't think starting another one would attract the people who contributed to this topic in the first place...

I just noticed on Memory Alpha that it gives a reason for the seeming confusion for Spock's rank:

Spock, as well as a few other lieutenant commanders seen in The Original Series (such as Benjamin Finney), are very clearly called Lieutenant Commander while wearing the insignia of a Commander. While sometimes viewed as a costumer error, the late original series costume designer William Ware Theiss stated in interviews that this was very much deliberate and that the practice of Lieutenant Commanders wearing the insignia for a full Commander mirrored the US military concept of "brevet" or "spot" promotions given to officers due to the nature of their billets.

"Yeah, we meant to do it all along!"

The problem with that is in r/w practice the title would go with the stripes. If there's a reason to bump someone up a grade, what purpose does it serve to continue to address them by the lower title that's at odds with the insignia? Doesn't make a lot of sense.

Justin

 

[Elder Knight]

When the "re-mastering" was announced, I was wondering whether they'd retouch the uniform colors and the stripes to correct what we consider obvious errors.

But that would eliminate much of the fun we've had nitpicking this stuff for over 40 years.

(It's been said that if Arthur Conan Doyle had employed a proofreader and fact-checker, there'd be no Sherlock Holmes scholarship.)

 

[Timo]

As opposed to assigning them the ground roles? Kirk could easily have gone back to Chief of Starfleet Operations. Scotty make him Chief of Starfleet Engineering. etc..

That would mean giving them actual influence. Giving them command of that garbage scow prevents them from being Chief of anything.

Or at least that would be how Starfleet would see it. They wouldn't yield any symbolic ground here, from their own POV, while the world at large would see them handing Kirk a symbolic promotion and a position of honor.

If there's a reason to bump someone up a grade, what purpose does it serve to continue to address them by the lower title that's at odds with the insignia? Doesn't make a lot of sense.

The practical sense should be obvious: Kirk needs somebody of Commander clout when his top officers get slaughtered in "Where No Man", so he gives Spock that clout - and the associated braid so that everybody in the crew can see the promotion and respond to Spock's elevated position. But since it's just a field promotion, Starfleet herberts at Starbase 11 don't see a need to acknowledge it in "Court Martial" yet, not until the matter has been through all the relevant bureaucracy. And that process is going nowhere fast while Starfleet decides whether to send Kirk to Tantalus for brainwashing; all his previous command decisions might come under scrutiny if he were found guilty, including the field promotions to Spock and Finney.

"Court Martial" is our heroes' first starbase visit after they set sail to the unknown, as far as we can tell. In between, they did deal with "routine" matters five times (thrice to check up on a field expedition, once to resupply an asylum, once to patrol the Neutral Zone), but even those assignments appeared to deal with the outermost, seldom visited holdings of the Federation; mainly, they sailed in unknown waters, including places so far away from the civilized world that they even had to shoot their own star charts.

I could easily see Starfleet wanting to place the field promotees before some sort of an evaluation committee rather than just faxing a stamp of approval via subspace, at least in the case of the higher line ranks. And I could see the difficulty in assembling that committee within the first fifteen episodes of TOS.

Similar reasons would explain why Giotto got his Commander braid before getting official acknowledgement from the highest levels, although the new aspect in that case would be that Kirk would be the one to voice out the lower rank, not even within earshot of any bigwigs. More probably, Kirk just forgot he had promoted yet another redshirt to compensate for the mounting losses. He does not make the mistake twice: the second time around, after Kirk has actually met with Giotto, he uses the generic "Commander".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[J.T.B.]

The practical sense should be obvious: Kirk needs somebody of Commander clout when his top officers get slaughtered in "Where No Man", so he gives Spock that clout - and the associated braid so that everybody in the crew can see the promotion and respond to Spock's elevated position. But since it's just a field promotion, Starfleet herberts at Starbase 11 don't see a need to acknowledge it in "Court Martial" yet, not until the matter has been through all the relevant bureaucracy. And that process is going nowhere fast while Starfleet decides whether to send Kirk to Tantalus for brainwashing; all his previous command decisions might come under scrutiny if he were found guilty, including the field promotions to Spock and Finney.

Really, the writers were going for something that convoluted that would not be noticed by probably 99% of the viewers and would just confuse the other 1%?

Either Kirk (or any CO) is empowered to make acting promotions or he's not. If he is, if he bumps someone from LCDR to CDR, that's what they are. It may not become permanent, they may revert to their old rank when they get back to base, but for the time being that's their grade, and no reason to refer to them as anything else.

If Kirk doesn't have that power, or his decision is overruled, you better believe Spock and anyone else concerned would un-ship that extra stripe before they meet up with higher command.

I could buy the computer reciting the permanent rank on record in the court-martial scenes. But that would not account for other instances; certainly not for Spock -- on his own ship and functioning in the post for which he would have been promoted -- being introduced as "lieutenant commander" in "Tomorrow is Yesterday."

He does not make the mistake twice: the second time around, after Kirk has actually met with Giotto, he uses the generic "Commander".

And then "lieutenant commander" again after he has been face-to-face with Giotto several times.

Justin

 

[Timo]

Really, the writers were going for something

The writers seldom go for anything. The costumers, basically never. That's just where the story would go, if we let it.

The other obvious way out of the combined TOS team fucking it up would be to say that || is the regular symbol for the rank of Lieutenant Commander, Senior Grade, while :| stands for Lieutenant Commander, Junior Grade, and Spock gets called "Commander" a lot merely for the sake of brevity.

In this model, |:| is actually Commander, and we naturally never hear this applied on Kirk because he is the Captain as well. But if he held the rank of Captain (like Pike in this scenario does), he would wear |||, keeping with the model of Royal Navy braid minus one. Of course, the COs of ships as small and humble as the Constitution class seldom get to wear |||, unless they actually command an entire flotilla and wear Commodore braid.

Either Kirk (or any CO) is empowered to make acting promotions or he's not.

Why should it be that clear-cut? Surely it would be in the interests of the organization to place all sorts of limitations and caveats on "emergency measures", lest the field commanders exploit their emergency powers to the detriment of the organization. After all, emergency powers are all about exceeding that which is normally allowed, about taking liberties. They definitely should have nonpermanence built in.

But that would not account for other instances; certainly not for Spock -- on his own ship and functioning in the post for which he would have been promoted -- being introduced as "lieutenant commander" in "Tomorrow is Yesterday."

That's not "other instances", it's "the other instance". Whatever consolation that is.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[J.T.B.]

Really, the writers were going for something

The writers seldom go for anything. The costumers, basically never. That's just where the story would go, if we let it.

But the idea that the whole thing was intentional was introduced in post #102.

The other obvious way out of the combined TOS team fucking it up would be to say that || is the regular symbol for the rank of Lieutenant Commander, Senior Grade, while :| stands for Lieutenant Commander, Junior Grade, and Spock gets called "Commander" a lot merely for the sake of brevity.

Except one would expect the court-martial service record to use the full, legal rank title.

Why should it be that clear-cut? Surely it would be in the interests of the organization to place all sorts of limitations and caveats on "emergency measures", lest the field commanders exploit their emergency powers to the detriment of the organization. After all, emergency powers are all about exceeding that which is normally allowed, about taking liberties.

That's exactly why the power would be clear-cut. If it's important enough to give someone a bump up in grade, you don't want there to be any questions. It would be unambiguously enumerated: An officer [of a certain rank or position] has the power in [circumstances] to promote to [certain grades] for [whatever duration]. And if it is an emergency, you don't want the picture muddied. Imagine a court-martial defense later on: "Well, I did disobey that order, but I wasn't sure the officer was my superior. His insignia said one thing, but the captain called him something else." That kind of vagueness is anathema to military structure.

They definitely should have nonpermanence built in.

I agree it wouldn't necessarily be permanent, that's why I said "for the time being" above. But for the permitted duration, what would be the harm in treating the promoted officer the same as others of the same grade?

These are not new issues, for hundreds of years admirals and captains had certain powers to fill vacancies when they were far from contact with the powers-that-were. Even in WW2 USN commanding officers were permitted to promote enlisted men to chief petty officer on a temporary basis. The only difference between them and a regular chief was that they put a "T" after their rate on official paperwork.

That's not "other instances", it's "the other instance". Whatever consolation that is.

No, there were a number of other times that the "inconsistent" rank is not part of the computer-recited service record. One being Giotto as mentioned above.

Justin

 

[Timo]

But the idea that the whole thing was intentional was introduced in post #102.

Umm, I can't locate such an idea in MacLeod's post. Or mine, at #105.

Intended by Starfleet? Yup. Intended by me? Yup. Intended by the writers or the costumers? No way.

Except one would expect the court-martial service record to use the full, legal rank title.

True enough. But since junior and senior grades of LtCmdr are fictional anyway, perhaps different rules would govern them? Whatever way we look at it, the court does address LtCmdr McCoy and LtCmdr Spock the same way despite their differing braid.

"His insignia said one thing, but the captain called him something else." That kind of vagueness is anathema to military structure.

That's the specific ambiguity that would not exist, as the skipper would use the rank he or she had just given to the guy. Within the ship, the make-believe of new ranks would exist in full; the interface to the rest of the universe would probably be sharp enough, considering how isolated the starships are, and how that very isolation would be the reason for the field promotion practice.

Now, if a veteran LtCmdr at the Tantalus colony had challenged Spock's authority, that would create some problems. But if we go by the idea that peers would decide on promotions to high line rank, then said LtCmdr and his or her friends could settle the matter there and then.

No, there were a number of other times that the "inconsistent" rank is not part of the computer-recited service record. One being Giotto as mentioned above.

Ah, you meant more generally. The case of Spock is closed with "TiY", though. And that of Finney with "Court Martial" already, in a rather neat package.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[J.T.B.]

Umm, I can't locate such an idea in MacLeod's post. Or mine, at #105.

Sorry, my mistake, the post was #101 by Sam_I_Am.

"His insignia said one thing, but the captain called him something else." That kind of vagueness is anathema to military structure.

That's the specific ambiguity that would not exist, as the skipper would use the rank he or she had just given to the guy. Within the ship, the make-believe of new ranks would exist in full; the interface to the rest of the universe would probably be sharp enough, considering how isolated the starships are, and how that very isolation would be the reason for the field promotion practice.

Sounds fine, but it doesn't correspond to what we've seen: Spock's and Giotto's "lower" titles were used by the skipper within the ship.

Now, if a veteran LtCmdr at the Tantalus colony had challenged Spock's authority, that would create some problems. But if we go by the idea that peers would decide on promotions to high line rank, then said LtCmdr and his or her friends could settle the matter there and then.

But if Kirk gave the temporary promotion legally, the veteran LCDR would have no leg to stand on. He/she would have to be content that they could get a similar boost if a vacancy occurred in their own command.

Justin

 

[ROBE]

Or simply Spock while a Lt Commander wore commander rank because he was first officer.
He was acting commander.

 

[Timo]

And Finney may have worn Commander braid because it wasn't his shirt. After all, he must have created a stash of survival supplies so that he could hide aboard the ship until an opening presented itself for a daring escape to some suitable planet. Taking his own shirts from his own closet (or synthesizing extra shirts) would give away the game, so stealing would be his preferred option.

Of course, that would mean we have to figure in yet another high-ranking officer aboard the ship - a goldshirt Commander who was the victim of this theft. I'd be happier with a lower number of high-ranking officers, especially when the episode so clearly places Kirk, Spock and Finney at the very top of the rank structure.

But yes, all sorts of explanations can be invented. The idea of delayed acknowledgment of field promotions would just allow us to deal with Spock and Finney at one stroke ("Tomorrow is Yesterday" notwithstanding), leaving only Giotto. (And, representing the opposite case, Mitchell who wears single solid braid but is LtCmdr nevertheless.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[C.E. Evans]

I like to think Starfleet made the Enterprise-A's commmand crew a special case--keep all them troublemakers on one ship.

As opposed to assigning them the ground roles?

See the smiley in my comment? That's means I was joking.

If Starfleet really felt Kirk and the gang were troublemakers, they'd just cashier them out of the service. Instead, they decided to honor them by assigning them to a new Enterprise.

 

[BillJ]

I like to think Starfleet made the Enterprise-A's commmand crew a special case--keep all them troublemakers on one ship.

As opposed to assigning them the ground roles?

See the smiley in my comment? That's means I was joking.

If Starfleet really felt Kirk and the gang were troublemakers, they'd just cashier them out of the service. Instead, they decided to honor them by assigning them to a new Enterprise.

I think it'd be tough to kick them out after just saving the planet. I actually agree with the notion they were kept together so Starfleet could keep an eye on them.

 

[Noname Given]

An interesting possibility. He was obviously not meant to be First Officer when The Cage was conceived and shot. I don't recall any indication one way or the other in WNMHGB except that he attends the Dept. Heads meeting with Scotty, Sulu, and the doctor - which would stand to reason if he was in charge of the Sciences Dept. but would not imply, necessarily, that he was also XO.

Except that he's wearing the same division insignia as Kirk in Where No Man Has Gone Before. Spock was a science officer (possibly second officer) in The Cage.

Not to throw a monkey wrench into the works but Kirk does refer to him as Science Officer in WNMHGB. More CDST I suppose. eh?

The proper term is YATI = Yet Another Trek Inconsistency

 

[Elder Knight]

The proper term is YATI = Yet Another Trek Inconsistency

Yati -- the inspiration for abominable snow jobs.