Trek '09 -- a prequel to the other movies, rather than the tv series?

[Lance]

As a reboot concept, it occured to me that in a lot of ways (sans the obvious removal of a certain canon home planet ) the Trek '09 reboot could quite comfortably fit as a prequel to the film series, rather than anything to do with the TOS television show. I really felt that if every episode of TOS suddenly fell into a wormhole and were gone forever, you could still theoretically watch Trek '09 (and it's eventual sequels) before popping in TMP, and not actually lose anything in terms of it being contradictory. Sure, the reboot NCC-1701 looks bigger and more blingy than that seen in TMP/TWOK/TSFS, but you could easily justify that as being a trend towards refitted starships being smaller and more ergonomic. Decker does say in TMP that following the refit "this is an almost entitely new Enterprise". Perhaps it only looks less advanced than the reboot version, a change of style rather than it being a step back in technological terms. Little touches like Pike wearing a TMP admirals uniform at the end of Trek '09 would help to solidify the links between it and the succeeding movies, bypassing the series entirely.

In some ways I do hope that the announcement of [a certain returning villain] for the next sequel is still played in a loosely confined fashion. If done correctly, they might still, theoretically, be able to make it 'fit' with the subsequent events seen in later films, while still contradicting other parts of his first appearance.

 

[Shatinator]

Re: Trek '09 -- a prequel to the other movies, rather than the tv seri

You say : "you could still theoretically watch Trek '09 (and it's eventual sequels) before popping in TMP, and not actually lose anything in terms of it being contradictory."

Then how would you "comfortably" place the TMP on Vulcan, not to mention the return to that planet in ST III-IV.

This presents a clear contradictory problem. This without even going into say,.. the non-canonical back story of Lt. Saavik, y'know (half Romulan and where she grew up, in addition of possibly being Spock Daughter from a joining between Spock and Romulan Commander from the Enterprise Incident-if you believe that kind of thing that is).

And then, their is Sybok. And we have'en even talked about the The Next Generation stories.

No these really are two separate universe-I wish they were not. Trust me I have tried to reconcile them, but Orci, really made it final with the Vulcan apocalypse

 

[serenitytrek1]

Re: Trek '09 -- a prequel to the other movies, rather than the tv seri

it’s a prequel set in an alternate reality...so it does not really represent what came before TOS and the movies.

Star Trek 2009 is completly a different universe from the prime universe and I believe it is better that way because prequels have never been consistent to the original timeline.

a perfect example is the star wars universe where the prequels were never consistent with the original trilogy. Examples of this include leia saying her mother died when she was young however in the prequels Padme died in child birth. leia was not even 10 minutes’ old when her mum died.

Another example was when OB1 told Luke he discovered his dad and trained him when it was indeed Quigon gin that discovered Anakin and took it upon himself to train him. OB1 only decided to train Anakin after Quigon made it his dying wish.

Also in the 2009 wolverine film which was a prequel to the x men film series (2000-2006) it was stated that sabertooth and wolverine where brothers. However in the 2000 x men film this is never mentioned. Even if wolverine lost his memory, sabertooth should have remembered wolverine as his brother both he didnt.

So yeah prequels have never told the stories consistently. this is one of the reason why I think people should stop calling star trek 09 a prequel...it is not.

the 09 film is a separate entity from the prime universe and we should be ready to expert the unexpected.

 

[Lance]

Re: Trek '09 -- a prequel to the other movies, rather than the tv seri

To qualify what I really mean in my OP, while I do think Trek 2009 wildly contradicts TOS the tv series, I think on the whole it has got more of a reverence for the TOS movies. Hypothetically, while I can imagine many of the original television episodes happening quite differently in the JJ-verse than they did in the Prime Star Trek universe, I do tend to think that in a lot of ways the versions of the characters could evolve into the same characters we see in TWOK. I could never imagine the Chris Pine version of James T. Kirk becoming the character who we seen in the 1960s series... but I can imagine him maturing into the one that we see in the TOS films, particularly TWOK and TUC. There is less contradiction in making that leap.

In complete fairness, there are major problems with the hypothetical that I suggested in my OP. Amanda Grayson (Spock's mother) dies in Trek 2009, while she is still very much alive in Star Trek IV. There is a major problem with watching them in the 'chronological' order right there.

But I do think that, in a lot of other ways, the multiverse of Trek '09 bears greater reverence for TMP-TUC than is often acknowledged.

 

[Captaindemotion]

Re: Trek '09 -- a prequel to the other movies, rather than the tv seri

star wars universe where the prequels were never consistent with the original trilogy. Examples of this include leia saying her mother died when she was young however in the prequels Padme died in child birth. leia was not even 10 minutes’ old when her mum died.

Well, under 10 minutes is still young. And any memories Leia might have could be down to some sort of Force-based ability or telepathy.

Another example was when OB1 told Luke he discovered his dad and trained him when it was indeed Quigon gin that discovered Anakin and took it upon himself to train him. OB1 only decided to train Anakin after Quigon made it his dying wish.

We already know that Obi-Wan tells the story 'from a certain point of view.' Even without this, I don't see anything contradictory about him giving Luke the digested version of events. 'I took it on myself because my original Master asked me to with his last breath' was somewhat superfluous to the needs of the story, either in-universe or for the benefit of the viewers of ROTJ.

Also in the 2009 wolverine film which was a prequel to the x men film series (2000-2006) it was stated that sabertooth and wolverine where brothers. However in the 2000 x men film this is never mentioned. Even if wolverine lost his memory, sabertooth should have remembered wolverine as his brother both he didnt

How do you know he didn't remember him? As soon as they meet, Sabretooth attacks Logan. This is consistent with the way in which they parted in Origins. And they never have a conversation in X-Men, so their relationship is never blatantly overlooked - it's just not mentioned, again, because it's not relevant to the story.

Of greater concern, to me anyway, is the fact that the Sabretooth/ Victor character looks and acts entirely differently in each movie...

 

[BillJ]

Re: Trek '09 -- a prequel to the other movies, rather than the tv seri

So yeah prequels have never told the stories consistently. this is one of the reason why I think people should stop calling star trek 09 a prequel...it is not.

This works under the assumption that the characters have a perfect recall of every bit of their lives.

It makes it more realistic that some inconsistencies exist. I don't know about you but I don't have a perfect recall of what happened last year, much less what happened twenty or thirty years ago.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: Trek '09 -- a prequel to the other movies, rather than the tv seri

No, it doesn't work as a prequel to the Treks we know, no matter how much wiggling you do. It deliberately set out to differentiate itself by blowing up Vulcan, by Spock Prime telling Kirk about how the Kirk he knew was different.

But, since Spock Prime is the same guy from "The Cage" through to "Unification", it does work as a sequel to every Trek ever, through him.

 

[1bulma1]

Re: Trek '09 -- a prequel to the other movies, rather than the tv seri

star wars universe where the prequels were never consistent with the original trilogy. Examples of this include leia saying her mother died when she was young however in the prequels Padme died in child birth. leia was not even 10 minutes’ old when her mum died.

Well, under 10 minutes is still young. And any memories Leia might have could be down to some sort of Force-based ability or telepathy.

Another example was when OB1 told Luke he discovered his dad and trained him when it was indeed Quigon gin that discovered Anakin and took it upon himself to train him. OB1 only decided to train Anakin after Quigon made it his dying wish.

We already know that Obi-Wan tells the story 'from a certain point of view.' Even without this, I don't see anything contradictory about him giving Luke the digested version of events. 'I took it on myself because my original Master asked me to with his last breath' was somewhat superfluous to the needs of the story, either in-universe or for the benefit of the viewers of ROTJ.

Also in the 2009 wolverine film which was a prequel to the x men film series (2000-2006) it was stated that sabertooth and wolverine where brothers. However in the 2000 x men film this is never mentioned. Even if wolverine lost his memory, sabertooth should have remembered wolverine as his brother both he didnt

How do you know he didn't remember him? As soon as they meet, Sabretooth attacks Logan. This is consistent with the way in which they parted in Origins. And they never have a conversation in X-Men, so their relationship is never blatantly overlooked - it's just not mentioned, again, because it's not relevant to the story.

Of greater concern, to me anyway, is the fact that the Sabretooth/ Victor character looks and acts entirely differently in each movie...

1. Please it was not some force ability that leia had...we all know our good friend george lucas can be a very lazy writer...so lazy that we are suppose to believe that padme died of a broken heart instead of pregnancy complications or worse Ankin was a result of a virgin birth....yawn

2. OBI tells the truth from a certain point of view NOT A STORY BASED ON PURE FACT.

the fact is that the character of quigon gin despite been the only redeeming character in the phantom menace created a lot of inconsistency. this is one of the reason why episode 1 sucked.(see the reviews on IMDB,Metacritic and Rotten Tomatoes)

the fact of the matter is that quigon gin's dying reqest to OB1 was to train Anakin.in case you have forgotten obi wan agreed with the jedi council that Anakin was too old.

Lastly sabertooth should have remembered wolverine on any circumstance. when you watch the 09 X-Men film they had the brothers sticking together right to the every end thing. this was one of the reasons why sabertooth could not even kill him.but in the first xmen film sabertooth would have killed wolverine with ease if he had the uper hand.

Not to be mean or rude because I say this with respect.

Can you fan boys listen to logic/reason and accept the facts for once instead of trying to make excuses for how bad the star wars prequels and the wolverine movie was.

I hope star trek does not fall into the same trap .the 09 film is set in an alternate reality, the chances of limited possibilities. There should be no reason why the events should turn out like they did in TOS.

 

[1bulma1]

Re: Trek '09 -- a prequel to the other movies, rather than the tv seri

So yeah prequels have never told the stories consistently. this is one of the reason why I think people should stop calling star trek 09 a prequel...it is not.

This works under the assumption that the characters have a perfect recall of every bit of their lives.

It makes it more realistic that some inconsistencies exist. I don't know about you but I don't have a perfect recall of what happened last year, much less what happened twenty or thirty years ago.

it’s one thing not to remember something...that is why people keep records.

Am sure nothing can go wrong in your life that would lead to plot holes and inconsistencies.

it’s like reading law at university and then trying to apply for a job to become a medical doctor with your law degree when you have no medical brackground.

when there are lots of plotholes and inconsistencies in a story we should call it out for what it is and not make excuses like some of the die hard star wars and x-men fan boys.

 

[BillJ]

Re: Trek '09 -- a prequel to the other movies, rather than the tv seri

when there are lots of plotholes and inconsistencies in a story we should call it out for what it is and not make excuses like some of the die hard star wars and x-men fan boys.

But we're not talking about a single story, we're talking about stories spread out across decades and told by dozens, if not hundreds, of different people.

I've found inconsistencies are much more fun to try to explain than to complain about.

 

[1bulma1]

Re: Trek '09 -- a prequel to the other movies, rather than the tv seri

when there are lots of plotholes and inconsistencies in a story we should call it out for what it is and not make excuses like some of the die hard star wars and x-men fan boys.

But we're not talking about a single story, we're talking about stories spread out across decades and told by dozens, if not hundreds, of different people.

I've found inconsistencies are much more fun to try to explain than to complain about.

I agree it can be fun.

however inconsistency and plotholes tend to diminish great stories. I mean just look at all the harm the star wars prequels has done to the original trilogy and the star wars legacy.

 

[BillJ]

Re: Trek '09 -- a prequel to the other movies, rather than the tv seri

when there are lots of plotholes and inconsistencies in a story we should call it out for what it is and not make excuses like some of the die hard star wars and x-men fan boys.

But we're not talking about a single story, we're talking about stories spread out across decades and told by dozens, if not hundreds, of different people.

I've found inconsistencies are much more fun to try to explain than to complain about.

I agree it can be fun.

however inconsistency and plotholes tend to diminish great stories. I mean just look at all the harm the star wars prequels has done to the original trilogy and the star wars legacy.

Inconsistencies created by the prequel trilogy didn't harm the Star Wars legacy. It was the fact that they were dull and lacked the dramatic "pop" of the original trilogy.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: Trek '09 -- a prequel to the other movies, rather than the tv seri

X-Men: First Class was fantastic, and it had very few details in common with the X-Men trilogy.

 

[Kelthaz]

Re: Trek '09 -- a prequel to the other movies, rather than the tv seri

I do tend to think that in a lot of ways the versions of the characters could evolve into the same characters we see in TWOK.

I sure hope not. The whole point of the Abrams-verse and blowing up Vulcan was to give us something new. Let's not chart a path for all the characters to end up in the exact same place a few years down the road.

 

[Captaindemotion]

Re: Trek '09 -- a prequel to the other movies, rather than the tv seri

star wars universe where the prequels were never consistent with the original trilogy. Examples of this include leia saying her mother died when she was young however in the prequels Padme died in child birth. leia was not even 10 minutes’ old when her mum died.

Well, under 10 minutes is still young. And any memories Leia might have could be down to some sort of Force-based ability or telepathy.



We already know that Obi-Wan tells the story 'from a certain point of view.' Even without this, I don't see anything contradictory about him giving Luke the digested version of events. 'I took it on myself because my original Master asked me to with his last breath' was somewhat superfluous to the needs of the story, either in-universe or for the benefit of the viewers of ROTJ.

Also in the 2009 wolverine film which was a prequel to the x men film series (2000-2006) it was stated that sabertooth and wolverine where brothers. However in the 2000 x men film this is never mentioned. Even if wolverine lost his memory, sabertooth should have remembered wolverine as his brother both he didnt

How do you know he didn't remember him? As soon as they meet, Sabretooth attacks Logan. This is consistent with the way in which they parted in Origins. And they never have a conversation in X-Men, so their relationship is never blatantly overlooked - it's just not mentioned, again, because it's not relevant to the story.

Of greater concern, to me anyway, is the fact that the Sabretooth/ Victor character looks and acts entirely differently in each movie...

1. Please it was not some force ability that leia had...we all know our good friend george lucas can be a very lazy writer...so lazy that we are suppose to believe that padme died of a broken heart instead of pregnancy complications or worse Ankin was a result of a virgin birth....yawn

2. OBI tells the truth from a certain point of view NOT A STORY BASED ON PURE FACT.

the fact is that the character of quigon gin despite been the only redeeming character in the phantom menace created a lot of inconsistency. this is one of the reason why episode 1 sucked.(see the review on IMDB,Metacritic and Rotten Tomatoes)

the fact of the matter is that quigon gin's dying reqest to OB1 was to train Anakin.in case you have forgotten obi wan agreed with the jedi council that Anakin was too old.

Lastly sabertooth should have remembered wolverine on any circumstance. when you watch the 09 X-Men film they had the brothers sticking together right to the every end thing. this was one of the reasons why sabertooth could not even kill him.but in the first xmen film sabpertooth would have killed wolverine with ease if he had the uper hand.

Not to be mean or rude because I say this with respect.

Can you fan boys listen to logic/reason and accept the fact for once instead of trying to make excuses for how bad the star wars prequels and the wolverine movie was.

I hope star trek does not fall into the same trap .the 09 film is set in an alternate reality, the chances of limited possibilities. There should be no reason why the events should turn out like they did in TOS.

Not to me mean or rude, because I say this with respect: but your posts would be an awful lot easier to read and would make a lot more sense if you made some, or indeed any, effort to use proper grammar and/ or punctuation.

And I'm not sure how you can claim to be showing respect and then address someone as 'you fanboys.' Given both of those factors, I really don't see any point in attempting any civil debate with you.

 

[1bulma1]

Re: Trek '09 -- a prequel to the other movies, rather than the tv seri

Well, under 10 minutes is still young. And any memories Leia might have could be down to some sort of Force-based ability or telepathy.



We already know that Obi-Wan tells the story 'from a certain point of view.' Even without this, I don't see anything contradictory about him giving Luke the digested version of events. 'I took it on myself because my original Master asked me to with his last breath' was somewhat superfluous to the needs of the story, either in-universe or for the benefit of the viewers of ROTJ.



How do you know he didn't remember him? As soon as they meet, Sabretooth attacks Logan. This is consistent with the way in which they parted in Origins. And they never have a conversation in X-Men, so their relationship is never blatantly overlooked - it's just not mentioned, again, because it's not relevant to the story.

Of greater concern, to me anyway, is the fact that the Sabretooth/ Victor character looks and acts entirely differently in each movie...

1. Please it was not some force ability that leia had...we all know our good friend george lucas can be a very lazy writer...so lazy that we are suppose to believe that padme died of a broken heart instead of pregnancy complications or worse Ankin was a result of a virgin birth....yawn

2. OBI tells the truth from a certain point of view NOT A STORY BASED ON PURE FACT.

the fact is that the character of quigon gin despite been the only redeeming character in the phantom menace created a lot of inconsistency. this is one of the reason why episode 1 sucked.(see the review on IMDB,Metacritic and Rotten Tomatoes)

the fact of the matter is that quigon gin's dying reqest to OB1 was to train Anakin.in case you have forgotten obi wan agreed with the jedi council that Anakin was too old.

Lastly sabertooth should have remembered wolverine on any circumstance. when you watch the 09 X-Men film they had the brothers sticking together right to the every end thing. this was one of the reasons why sabertooth could not even kill him.but in the first xmen film sabpertooth would have killed wolverine with ease if he had the uper hand.

Not to be mean or rude because I say this with respect.

Can you fan boys listen to logic/reason and accept the fact for once instead of trying to make excuses for how bad the star wars prequels and the wolverine movie was.

I hope star trek does not fall into the same trap .the 09 film is set in an alternate reality, the chances of limited possibilities. There should be no reason why the events should turn out like they did in TOS.

Not to me mean or rude, because I say this with respect: but your posts would be an awful lot easier to read and would make a lot more sense if you made some, or indeed any, effort to use proper grammar and/ or punctuation.

And I'm not sure how you can claim to be showing respect and then address someone as 'you fanboys.' Given both of those factors, I really don't see any point in attempting any civil debate with you.

You don’t need to have a civil debate with me....I stated the facts, you opinion is not
going to change the truth of the matter.

What I said about the star wars prequels and X-men origin: wolverine was TRUE....its that simple.

Also I called you guys fan boys because that is what you guys are,you people are the counterparts to the twilight fangirls. You continue to defend and get angry at others when they tell you how awful a film you love so much is.

Don’t take your annoyance out on me for saying the truth.

 

[M'Sharak]

Re: Trek '09 -- a prequel to the other movies, rather than the tv seri

<star wars, wolverine, sabertooth, x-men nonsense snipped>

Not to be mean or rude because I say this with respect.

Can you fan boys listen to logic/reason and accept the facts for once instead of trying to make excuses for how bad the star wars prequels and the wolverine movie was.

I hope star trek does not fall into the same trap .the 09 film is set in an alternate reality, the chances of limited possibilities. There should be no reason why the events should turn out like they did in TOS.

Captain Demotion does have a point about the "Not to be mean or rude because I say this with respect" lead-in to "Can you fan boys listen to logic/reason and accept the facts for once".

That aside, haven't I also pointed out to you on more than one occasion that the proper place for discussions of non-Star Trek science fiction/fantasy material is the Science Fiction and Fantasy forum? Not only were you being rude and lecturing people about what you think they ought to accept, but you're going on at length about stuff which has nothing at all to do with either the thread topic or the forum topic.

Take it all to SF&F and start a thread about it there if you're so interested in getting ranty about Padme's broken heart, Anakin's virgin birth, "OB1", Wolverine and the rest, but I'd like to see that stop right now in this forum, please. It's off-topic and doesn't belong here.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Re: Trek '09 -- a prequel to the other movies, rather than the tv seri

You say : "you could still theoretically watch Trek '09 (and it's eventual sequels) before popping in TMP, and not actually lose anything in terms of it being contradictory."

Then how would you "comfortably" place the TMP on Vulcan, not to mention the return to that planet in ST III-IV.

This presents a clear contradictory problem. This without even going into say,.. the non-canonical back story of Lt. Saavik, y'know (half Romulan and where she grew up, in addition of possibly being Spock Daughter from a joining between Spock and Romulan Commander from the Enterprise Incident-if you believe that kind of thing that is).

And then, their is Sybok. And we have'en even talked about the The Next Generation stories.

No these really are two separate universe-I wish they were not. Trust me I have tried to reconcile them, but Orci, really made it final with the Vulcan apocalypse

Not to mention that Spock's mother who dies in Trek XI showed up in Star Trek IV.

 

[1bulma1]

Re: Trek '09 -- a prequel to the other movies, rather than the tv seri

<star wars, wolverine, sabertooth, x-men nonsense snipped>

Not to be mean or rude because I say this with respect.

Can you fan boys listen to logic/reason and accept the facts for once instead of trying to make excuses for how bad the star wars prequels and the wolverine movie was.

I hope star trek does not fall into the same trap .the 09 film is set in an alternate reality, the chances of limited possibilities. There should be no reason why the events should turn out like they did in TOS.

Captain Demotion does have a point about the "Not to be mean or rude because I say this with respect" lead-in to "Can you fan boys listen to logic/reason and accept the facts for once".

That aside, haven't I also pointed out to you on more than one occasion that the proper place for discussions of non-Star Trek science fiction/fantasy material is the Science Fiction and Fantasy forum? Not only were you being rude and lecturing people about what you think they ought to accept, but you're going on at length about stuff which has nothing at all to do with either the thread topic or the forum topic.

Take it all to SF&F and start a thread about it there if you're so interested in getting ranty about Padme's broken heart, Anakin's virgin birth, "OB1", Wolverine and the rest, but I'd like to see that stop right now in this forum, please. It's off-topic and doesn't belong here.

Thak you M'Sharak

I wasn’t really talking about Star Wars or X-Men, I was simply using those series to point out how inconsistencies and plot holes can ruin a film series and why star trek 2013 must avoid such mistakes.

I will try not to talk about star wars or x-men next time. I genuinely dont mean to be rude but I am sick and tired of passionate fans getting angry at those who criticise a film series they worship and can find no fault in. Popular culture uses the term 'fan boys' and 'fan girls' to describe this people.

However I wont use such terms on this board to describe people again since some find it offensive.

 

[Set Harth]

Re: Trek '09 -- a prequel to the other movies, rather than the tv seri

But, since Spock Prime is the same guy from "The Cage" through to "Unification", it does work as a sequel to every Trek ever, through him.