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Were Time Lords Ever Nice?

^ I don't see why that sounds like I'm introducing a contest. If someone said to me 'You'd have to admit that Barack Obama is better known than Enda Kenny [Irish Taoiseach]', I'd agree. I wouldn't view it as a pissing contest between the US and Ireland. It's essentially a statement of fact.

Jesus Christ is the founder of one of the largest religions in the world, followed by millions. Outside of the US, Benedict Arnold is a little to moderately well known historical figure. Indeed, I suspect that Christ is better known to most Americans too.

But none of that has anything to do with what I'm talking about. I was not trying to compare awareness of American history to awareness of Christianity, I was simply comparing US and British awareness of a shared portion of Anglo-American history. I'm comparing apples to apples, and you've gone off on a sidebar about comparing apples to oranges. That confuses me.
 
^ I don't see why that sounds like I'm introducing a contest.

It comes across as being like introducing the idea of a contest because which one is more well-known is irrelevant to the question of why an important figure in an important event to both U.S. and British history is only widely-known to Americans.

Besides it was hundreds of years ago, and it's the relationsip today that matters.

False logic. The relationship that exists today is a direct result of events hundreds of years ago; ergo, both are important. Saying that the relationship that exists today is important but not the events of the 18th Century is like saying that it's the cake that matters, not the ingredients.
 
^ I don't see why that sounds like I'm introducing a contest. If someone said to me 'You'd have to admit that Barack Obama is better known than Enda Kenny [Irish Taoiseach]', I'd agree. I wouldn't view it as a pissing contest between the US and Ireland. It's essentially a statement of fact.

Jesus Christ is the founder of one of the largest religions in the world, followed by millions. Outside of the US, Benedict Arnold is a little to moderately well known historical figure. Indeed, I suspect that Christ is better known to most Americans too.

But none of that has anything to do with what I'm talking about. I was not trying to compare awareness of American history to awareness of Christianity, I was simply comparing US and British awareness of a shared portion of Anglo-American history. I'm comparing apples to apples, and you've gone off on a sidebar about comparing apples to oranges. That confuses me.

Really? Care to cast your mind back?

The more commonly used name for someone who betrays you is Judas. After all I've never heard of Benedict Arnold, so it doesn't look like it's passed into the widespread mainstream.

Really? Hunh. Benedict Arnold is well-known to every American schoolchild, as the most infamous traitor of the Revolutionary War. Interesting that he's fallen into obscurity on your side of the pond. Maybe it's because you have a much longer national history, and a great many more recent battles for colonial independence to worry about, so the personalities of the American Revolution don't loom as large.

The 'Hunh' following MacLeod's remark about Judas being a more common name for a traitor didn't suggest some degree of surprise that Judas was more famous than Arnold? Or were you merely surprised that he hadn't heard of Arnold and that the latter's name hadn't passed into the mainstream?

^ I've heard of Benedict Arnold but would agree with the basic contention that 'Judas' would be a more commonly used term for a traitor than Mr Arnold, outside of the US.

As it happens, Benjamin Franklin wrote, "Judas sold only one man, Arnold three millions." (You chaps know who Ben Franklin was, right?)

Again, that remark sounds like you're trying to introduce a competitive element and make it sound like the rest of us are somehow lacking for not being aware of who Arnold was. And the 'you chaps' line was somewhat uncalled for, IMHO.

As a result, I went on to explain why people on this side of the pond had a greater awareness of Christianity - and thus Judas - than they do of the US War of Independence and Arnold. But you've interpreted this as a pissing contest. Divided by a common tongue indeed.
 
^ I don't see why that sounds like I'm introducing a contest.

It comes across as being like introducing the idea of a contest because which one is more well-known is irrelevant to the question of why an important figure in an important event to both U.S. and British history is only widely-known to Americans.

Besides it was hundreds of years ago, and it's the relationsip today that matters.

False logic. The relationship that exists today is a direct result of events hundreds of years ago; ergo, both are important. Saying that the relationship that exists today is important but not the events of the 18th Century is like saying that it's the cake that matters, not the ingredients.

From memory back in the late 18th century early 19th century, the US was far closer to France than it was to the UK. Anglo-American relations improved far more in the last 150 or so years. Espically in the 20th century.

Whilst the events where important, different sides place different empathise on certain battles/people. So whilst the US might consider Arnold an important person it does not hold true the UK would.
 
^ I don't see why that sounds like I'm introducing a contest.

It comes across as being like introducing the idea of a contest because which one is more well-known is irrelevant to the question of why an important figure in an important event to both U.S. and British history is only widely-known to Americans.

Besides it was hundreds of years ago, and it's the relationsip today that matters.

False logic. The relationship that exists today is a direct result of events hundreds of years ago; ergo, both are important. Saying that the relationship that exists today is important but not the events of the 18th Century is like saying that it's the cake that matters, not the ingredients.

From memory back in the late 18th century early 19th century, the US was far closer to France than it was to the UK.

I mean, sort-of. Obviously we hugged France close during the Revolution, but by the 1790s, the United States was divided between factions that favored closer ties with Britain and factions that favored closer ties with France, and public opinion was majorly divided over whether or not to support the French Revolution. We ended up in a state of undeclared hostilities with the French Republic in 1798 that was called the Quasi-War, and U.S. foreign policy for a long time thereafter was basically all about which superpower, France or Britain, to support at any given time.

Anglo-American relations improved far more in the last 150 or so years. Espically in the 20th century.

It was really World War I when U.S.-U.K. relations finally turned from the old hostilities of the Revolution and the War of 1812, but even during the inter-war period, there was a lot of suspicion of the Britons -- to the point where the U.S. even had war plans for how to invade and occupy Canada if a war between the U.S. and U.K. broke out. It wasn't until World War II that the U.S.-U.K. alliance was truly solidified the way it is today. But U.S.-French relations have always been weird, and have never been as close as the modern U.S.-U.K. relationship.

Whilst the events where important, different sides place different empathise on certain battles/people. So whilst the US might consider Arnold an important person it does not hold true the UK would.

I'm sorry, but it's just not reasonable to say that Benedict Arnold was not an important figure in the American War of Independence. One might argue that he's not AS important as Americans tend to think he is, and one might argue that the American Revolutionary War is not as important to British history as Americans think it ought to be seen as being, but to say that Benedict Arnold was not important at all is just flat-out nonsense.
 
^ And like I say, the UK doesn't seem to like teaching about conflicts it lost. That's probably why there's such a huge emphasis on World Wars 1 & 2 in modern UK schools history. And the US War of Independence doesn't seem to be widely studied.

I'd also be fairly certain that, e.g., Roger Casement, revered in Ireland, hanged for treason by Britain, is little-known to a wide section of the modern UK public. But I'm not so exercised by it as our American friends are by the lack of awareness on Arnold. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Casement Like you say, different sides place different emphasis on certain people.

I don't know if anyone is saying that Arnold is unimportant. Just that he's not thought about or famous enough to be viewed as important in the UK.
 
Really? Care to cast your mind back?

The more commonly used name for someone who betrays you is Judas. After all I've never heard of Benedict Arnold, so it doesn't look like it's passed into the widespread mainstream.

The 'Hunh' following MacLeod's remark about Judas being a more common name for a traitor didn't suggest some degree of surprise that Judas was more famous than Arnold?

Not at all. I wasn't addressing that sentence, I was addressing the one after it. The part that surprised me was "I've never heard of Benedict Arnold."

I mean, obviously Judas is more famous than Benedict Arnold. What, do you think I just arrived on the planet?


^ I've heard of Benedict Arnold but would agree with the basic contention that 'Judas' would be a more commonly used term for a traitor than Mr Arnold, outside of the US.

As it happens, Benjamin Franklin wrote, "Judas sold only one man, Arnold three millions." (You chaps know who Ben Franklin was, right?)

Again, that remark sounds like you're trying to introduce a competitive element and make it sound like the rest of us are somehow lacking for not being aware of who Arnold was.

No, you were the one who seemed to be introducing a competitive element, and I was just quoting a line I read on Wikipedia that I felt provided an amusing contrast.

And the 'you chaps' line was somewhat uncalled for, IMHO.

Why? Has the meaning of "chaps" changed in British slang usage to have some more derogatory connotation? I was just trying to sound sociable in a British sort of way. And "blokes" sounded too lower-class to me, and if there's some other slang term that's more in current vogue, I couldn't think of it.


As a result, I went on to explain why people on this side of the pond had a greater awareness of Christianity - and thus Judas - than they do of the US War of Independence and Arnold. But you've interpreted this as a pissing contest.

No, I said it seemed to me that you were interpreting it as a comparison between American history and Christianity, which confused me greatly, so I chose a colorful way to describe that approach. And now you're being hyperdefensive and confrontational in a way that confuses me even more. I was just seeking clarification, yet you seem to feel you're being attacked in some way. I don't understand that.
 
<wonders how many more pages of a Time Lord thread can be dominated with a totally off topic philosophical debate>

So, anyways, Timelords, noble intentions but, corrupted by power and desperation. Many times in the extended Universe (And I believe at least a few times in the TV show) the Doctor and other folks have mentioned part of the problem is their longevity as well.
 
^ Okay, time out everyone, we're clearly at cross purposes. Like I said, divided by a common language.

I didn't really appreciate the phrase' pissing contest' and I thought the 'you chaps' line was a bit condescending - I wouldn't say 'You folks' or 'Y'all' to Americans in the same context, but fair enough, you didn't mean any offence.

I've clearly wrongly interpreted the point of the Ben Franklin remark (I did think I was being aptly historical and anecdotally interesting by referring to my having seen his house in London, mind you!). It did seem to me, in light of the other passage I quoted, that you were puzzled that Judas was a more common expression that Benedict Arnold on this side of the pond, so I was trying to explain why that was so. So if I got defensive, it was merely frustration that an attempt to explain why US history isn't that well studied or known on this continent (and again, I'm Irish, not British) was being interpreted as starting a pissing contest instead of a sincere attempt to answer a question.

Confusion reigns (or governs, in the context of your and my respective republics, as oppose to the UK monarchy), but hopefully all now addressed, let normal service return.
 
<wonders how many more pages of a Time Lord thread can be dominated with a totally off topic philosophical debate>

So, anyways, Timelords, noble intentions but, corrupted by power and desperation. Many times in the extended Universe (And I believe at least a few times in the TV show) the Doctor and other folks have mentioned part of the problem is their longevity as well.

The expanded universe also hints that they might have been rotten from the beginning. An alternate history of Gallifrey's early days is presented, suggesting that Rassillon sabotaged Omega's experiments so that he would be killed in the creation of the Eye of Harmony (boy, that worked well) and he practically turned Gallifrey into a dictatorship.
 
It comes across as being like introducing the idea of a contest because which one is more well-known is irrelevant to the question of why an important figure in an important event to both U.S. and British history is only widely-known to Americans.



False logic. The relationship that exists today is a direct result of events hundreds of years ago; ergo, both are important. Saying that the relationship that exists today is important but not the events of the 18th Century is like saying that it's the cake that matters, not the ingredients.

From memory back in the late 18th century early 19th century, the US was far closer to France than it was to the UK.

I mean, sort-of. Obviously we hugged France close during the Revolution, but by the 1790s, the United States was divided between factions that favored closer ties with Britain and factions that favored closer ties with France, and public opinion was majorly divided over whether or not to support the French Revolution. We ended up in a state of undeclared hostilities with the French Republic in 1798 that was called the Quasi-War, and U.S. foreign policy for a long time thereafter was basically all about which superpower, France or Britain, to support at any given time.

Anglo-American relations improved far more in the last 150 or so years. Espically in the 20th century.
It was really World War I when U.S.-U.K. relations finally turned from the old hostilities of the Revolution and the War of 1812, but even during the inter-war period, there was a lot of suspicion of the Britons -- to the point where the U.S. even had war plans for how to invade and occupy Canada if a war between the U.S. and U.K. broke out. It wasn't until World War II that the U.S.-U.K. alliance was truly solidified the way it is today. But U.S.-French relations have always been weird, and have never been as close as the modern U.S.-U.K. relationship.

Whilst the events where important, different sides place different empathise on certain battles/people. So whilst the US might consider Arnold an important person it does not hold true the UK would.
I'm sorry, but it's just not reasonable to say that Benedict Arnold was not an important figure in the American War of Independence. One might argue that he's not AS important as Americans tend to think he is, and one might argue that the American Revolutionary War is not as important to British history as Americans think it ought to be seen as being, but to say that Benedict Arnold was not important at all is just flat-out nonsense.

If you note I never once said he wasn't important. I merely said that just because one side sees something/someone as being important, the other side might not see the same thing/person the same way.
 
Christ almighty, people, enough of this collective pissing match! We've established that people growing up in different countries will learn different things about the same war and that others will find comparisons to the Bible more obvious than comparisons to history. Let's move on.
 
^Good grief. All I was trying to do was get information about an issue I was curious about. I don't know where this impression that there was some sort of clash of egos involved came from. As I said, I asked questions because I was confused and seeking clarification, not because I was trying to judge or attack anyone. The fact that this has somehow turned into an argument is most strange to me. I was simply trying to have a discussion.
 
Benedict Arnold and Rassilon find out Queen Victoria has been replaced by Sarah Palin in a Teselector. They need the help of the Doctor and his companion (the now female Master, played by Jane Horroks) to put an end to her nefarious plan to create a zombie Jesus to rule the world.
 
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