Were Time Lords Ever Nice?

[Captain Crow]

Except that I think the original Rassilon was generally revered as a hero and cultural founder, even though historians may have acknowledged his downside.

Only by those who believe the "official history" of him. As shown in The Deadly Assassin the Timelord's "offical history" is sometimes falsified to make them look good rather than telling the truth. Also in The Five Doctors the Doctor is aware of some Rassilon's "unoffical history" and the reasons why they chucked him in the Dark Tower in stasis. So having the Doctor use Rassilon as a byword isn't so far fetched.

 

[Turbo]

It could be that, and it's an interesting theory considering the Doctor's possible history in the New Adventures, but I really don't think there's any need to make it more complicated than resurrecting Rassilon and having him regenerate in the process. Possibly a few times before we see him in "The End of Time".

 

[Alidar Jarok]

I guess that would rule out a return by Romana, Susan, the Rani, or anyone else.

Not necessarily. Just because they returned to fight in the Time War doesn't mean they stayed in the Time War. Just like the Master fled, others might have been able to as well.

 

[Turbo]

I guess that would rule out a return by Romana, Susan, the Rani, or anyone else.

Not necessarily. Just because they returned to fight in the Time War doesn't mean they stayed in the Time War. Just like the Master fled, others might have been able to as well.

The common theory for that seems to be that they might be hiding in E-Space.

 

[Christopher]

Only by those who believe the "official history" of him.

Well, yes, but that's the point. In order for it to be a commonly understood byword for a tyrant, as "Benedict Arnold" is for a traitor, it would have to be based in what's generally believed, not in secret knowledge that conflicts with common knowledge. By analogy, history tends to gloss over the fact that Benedict Arnold was initially one of the American Revolution's greatest heroes and most successful generals, until his own side screwed him over and his self-serving superiors robbed him of credit for his victories and left him in dire financial straits, driving him to change sides. But if someone well-versed in the historical details used "Benedict Arnold" to mean an accomplished and loyal leader, that wouldn't be understood by the average listener, so it wouldn't work as a byword for that.

 

[Captain Crow]

It could be that, and it's an interesting theory considering the Doctor's possible history in the New Adventures, but I really don't think there's any need to make it more complicated than resurrecting Rassilon and having him regenerate in the process. Possibly a few times before we see him in "The End of Time".

I kind of like the idea it was just some President that turned into a tyrannical nut and the Doctor is more or less calling him out for it by calling him Rassilon. Of course the whole "is it or isn't it Rassilon" is like the "who is the woman in white" business. There is enough leeway for the viewer to make up their own answer. So there really isn't a right or wrong one.

Though if it is him, why would they need to resurrect him? He's not dead. He's in stasis in the Dark Tower.

Only by those who believe the "official history" of him.

Well, yes, but that's the point. In order for it to be a commonly understood byword for a tyrant, as "Benedict Arnold" is for a traitor, it would have to be based in what's generally believed, not in secret knowledge that conflicts with common knowledge. By analogy, history tends to gloss over the fact that Benedict Arnold was initially one of the American Revolution's greatest heroes and most successful generals, until his own side screwed him over and his self-serving superiors robbed him of credit for his victories and left him in dire financial straits, driving him to change sides. But if someone well-versed in the historical details used "Benedict Arnold" to mean an accomplished and loyal leader, that wouldn't be understood by the average listener, so it wouldn't work as a byword for that.

The Doctor is the only one who calls the President to his face Rassilon and whoever the President was (if not the actual Rassilon) might also be aware of the real history of Rassilon and understand the reference. And since the comment was directed at him he's the only one who needs to understand the reference. And judging from the face he gave after the Doctor said it he understood it. So it still works.

 

[MacLeod]

It doesn't seem implausible that Rassilon is THE Rassilion, the Doctor even calls him by name, this should be significantly telling, otherwise what would be the point of addressing him by that name?

Rassilon could be a byword for tyrannical leader rather than the current President's actual name. Kind of like calling someone who betrays you Benedict Arnold.

The more commonly used name for someone who betrays you is Judas. After all I've never heard of Benedict Arnold, so it doesn't look like it's passed into the widespread mainstream.

 

[Christopher]

The more commonly used name for someone who betrays you is Judas. After all I've never heard of Benedict Arnold, so it doesn't look like it's passed into the widespread mainstream.

Really? Hunh. Benedict Arnold is well-known to every American schoolchild, as the most infamous traitor of the Revolutionary War. Interesting that he's fallen into obscurity on your side of the pond. Maybe it's because you have a much longer national history, and a great many more recent battles for colonial independence to worry about, so the personalities of the American Revolution don't loom as large.

 

[Captaindemotion]

^ I've heard of Benedict Arnold but would agree with the basic contention that 'Judas' would be a more commonly used term for a traitor than Mr Arnold, outside of the US.

 

[Captain Crow]

The more commonly used name for someone who betrays you is Judas. After all I've never heard of Benedict Arnold, so it doesn't look like it's passed into the widespread mainstream.

Really? Hunh. Benedict Arnold is well-known to every American schoolchild, as the most infamous traitor of the Revolutionary War. Interesting that he's fallen into obscurity on your side of the pond. Maybe it's because you have a much longer national history, and a great many more recent battles for colonial independence to worry about, so the personalities of the American Revolution don't loom as large.

^ I've heard of Benedict Arnold but would agree with the basic contention that 'Judas' would be a more commonly used term for a traitor than Mr Arnold, outside of the US.

This kind of demonstrates why the byword idea is plasible. The President knows about Rassilon's history so understands why the Doctor called him Rassilon. It doesn't matter if not everyone got it. As long as the person who it was directed at, the President, understood. Which judging from his reaction he did.

It's kind of like calling an expendable person "Redshirt". People familiar with old Trek will get the reference while those not familiar with it don't. Similar to my Benedict Arnold reference being lost on those not familiar with portions of US history.

 

[Christopher]

^ I've heard of Benedict Arnold but would agree with the basic contention that 'Judas' would be a more commonly used term for a traitor than Mr Arnold, outside of the US.

As it happens, Benjamin Franklin wrote, "Judas sold only one man, Arnold three millions." (You chaps know who Ben Franklin was, right?)

 

[Turbo]

Thou if it is him, why would they need to resurrect him? He's not dead. He's in stasis in the Dark Tower.

D'oh. I meant to type "revive" instead of "resurrect".

 

[The Wormhole]

(You chaps know who Ben Franklin was, right?)

He's a character in the Dr. McNinja web comic.

 

[MacLeod]

The more commonly used name for someone who betrays you is Judas. After all I've never heard of Benedict Arnold, so it doesn't look like it's passed into the widespread mainstream.

Really? Hunh. Benedict Arnold is well-known to every American schoolchild, as the most infamous traitor of the Revolutionary War. Interesting that he's fallen into obscurity on your side of the pond. Maybe it's because you have a much longer national history, and a great many more recent battles for colonial independence to worry about, so the personalities of the American Revolution don't loom as large.

Perhaps, but there weren't that many wars of Indepence. The big one really after the American War of Indepence were the Naepolonic Wars. Then of course there is further expansion of the British Empire, and the Industrial revolution which would be taught.

And whilst he might be well known to every American Schoolkid, the population of America is less than 300m, Which is ~4% of the global population whilst Christanity is known by around 2.2bn or ~33% of the global population. So in terms of the World using the term Judas is more likely to get your point across that you mean traitor.

 

[Christopher]

Perhaps, but there weren't that many wars of Indepence. The big one really after the American War of Indepence were the Naepolonic Wars. Then of course there is further expansion of the British Empire, and the Industrial revolution which would be taught.

Aren't you forgetting the generations-long struggle for India's independence from the British Raj? Or the Irish War of Independence in 1921 and the subsequent decades of guerrilla warfare in Northern Ireland? Then there's the Malayan Emergency from 1948-1960, plus the Mau Mau Uprising and other anticolonial violence during the decolonization of Africa.

And whilst he might be well known to every American Schoolkid, the population of America is less than 300m, Which is ~4% of the global population whilst Christanity is known by around 2.2bn or ~33% of the global population.

Well, yes, but we're not talking about India or China here. The American Revolution is a part of British history too. Arnold sold out to the British and became a general in their army in the final year of the war; I'd imagine that at the time he was hailed in England as a hero. So while I wouldn't be surprised if someone from, say, Poland or Kenya or Thailand had never heard of Benedict Arnold, it does seem a bit surprising that someone from Great Britain wouldn't know who he was. I'm thinking that maybe the reason is that Britain has so much more history than the US does, so that even though we were both participants in the war, it's a much smaller fraction of what British history education has to cover.

 

[VDCNI]

The American Revolution isn't really taught in British schools. Benedict Arnold might be a vaguely familiar name to some people but I doubt many in the UK will know the context. And if we don't care I doubt many other countries do. Judas or quisling will be more familiar by far though I doubt many people know where quisling comes from!

 

[VDCNI]

History teaching before age 16 is pretty limited in the UK. The Tudors and the second world war tend to dominate.

 

[DWF]

The more commonly used name for someone who betrays you is Judas. After all I've never heard of Benedict Arnold, so it doesn't look like it's passed into the widespread mainstream.

Really? Hunh. Benedict Arnold is well-known to every American schoolchild, as the most infamous traitor of the Revolutionary War. Interesting that he's fallen into obscurity on your side of the pond. Maybe it's because you have a much longer national history, and a great many more recent battles for colonial independence to worry about, so the personalities of the American Revolution don't loom as large.

I seriously dounbt that's true anymore, the schools are terrible about teaching history nowadays.

 

[Photoman15]

RTD said it was the original Rassilon. That should end the debate.

 

[Admiral_Young]

^ I thought that as well when I pointed that out to Christopher.