Were Time Lords Ever Nice?

[TedShatner10]

RTD built up a not entirely undeserved reputation for banging out increasingly weaker, grandiose season finales that had become decidedly repetitive and lacking dramatic tension ("The Stolen Earth"-"Journey's End" seemed to conform to that). However how does "The End of Time" compare to the other RTD/Moffat finales and Time Lord stories?

 

[CaptainMatt]

The only real good thing 'The End of Time' had going for it was all the hype surorunding David Tennant's departure. The story did have some interesting tidbits about the Master but the story overall was far from being a classic. I hated how the Tennant Doctor moaned and complained about having to regenerate again, and how rude he was to Wilf. Russell T Davies should have written it with the Doctor having more dignity.

 

[The Wormhole]

I hated how the Tennant Doctor moaned and complained about having to regenerate again, and how rude he was to Wilf. Russell T Davies should have written it with the Doctor having more dignity.

I had a similar reaction when I first saw the episode. After all, Wilf was saving someone else's life when he got stuck in that chamber, he doesn't deserve to be yelled at for that. But the more I thought about it the more I liked the scene. While we all might want and expect our heroes to be noble and willing to sacrifice themselves at a moment's notice, how does such a hero feel about that? Is it not likely, even relaistic that when in such a situation, a person will get extremely upset and lash out at the person they have to save? I honestly think I would react the same way in that situation, and why the Doctor's "I could be so much more!" moment is quite possibly the definitive moment he felt like a real person.

 

[Admiral_Young]

The Doctor wasn't rude to Wilf during the scene, he was frustrated and feeling sorry for himself after he realized the mistake he'd made about the four knocks. It's not like he was making it a personal issue towards Wilf.

 

[Christopher]

What matters isn't that the Doctor had selfish feelings; what matters is that he had them and chose not to act on them. It's like what the Third Doctor said in "Planet of the Daleks" (I think): "Courage is being afraid and doing what you have to do anyway." The fact that the Doctor was afraid of dying and could come up with so many logical reasons why his life was more important than Wilf's made it that much more noble when he ended up sacrificing himself after all.

 

[Admiral_Young]

I looked at it as really the final following up on the Time Lord Victorious stuff from "Waters of Mars". Christopher is quite right that it was about the Doctor not acting on those feelings and instead doing the noble thing, it was also about the theme that this incarnation didn't want to die yet still doing the right thing. There was no way that he was going to allow the grandfather of his best friend die because he was feeling selfish and frustrated. He could never live with himself if he'd allowed his feelings to play out.

 

[PorthosShadow]

The Doctor wasn't rude to Wilf during the scene, he was frustrated and feeling sorry for himself after he realized the mistake he'd made about the four knocks. It's not like he was making it a personal issue towa"thrds Wilf.

Given the whole "Time Lord Victorious" thing it didn't surprise me in the least that he didn't want to "go". He really wasn't attacking Wilf but just lashing out as anyone would if they were in a desperate situation they were trying to avoid.

 

[Admiral_Young]

^ I agree.

 

[Captaindemotion]

The scene actually reminded me a little of how Scorsese looked at Jesus in The Last Temptation of Christ. The protagonist in each may be godlike (or even God, in one case!) but he still knows fear and pain and he wants to live.He doesn't want to sacrifice himself and pines for the things he could do if he lives. But ultimately, he sacrifices himself for a people or person who could easily be regarded as his inferior, despite the temptation to be selfish.

 

[CaptainMatt]

It still took something away from the finished result to have him do that IMHO.
The Doctor is not perfect, but he does not whine like a child either.

 

[DWF]

It still took something away from the finished result to have him do that IMHO.
The Doctor is not perfect, but he does not whine like a child either.

The Doctor: There's no point being grown-up if you can't be childish sometimes.

 

[Captaindemotion]

It still took something away from the finished result to have him do that IMHO.
The Doctor is not perfect, but he does not whine like a child either.

I think quite a lot of grown-ups might whine at the prospect of having to sacrifice themselves too.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Especially if they'd become fond of being themselves...boy that sounded weird to type lol.

 

[CaptainMatt]

It still took something away from the finished result to have him do that IMHO.
The Doctor is not perfect, but he does not whine like a child either.

The Doctor: There's no point being grown-up if you can't be childish sometimes.

I knew that quote would be used against me. But at least the Doctor knew when to act grown up and when to act childlike.

 

[PorthosShadow]

It still took something away from the finished result to have him do that IMHO.
The Doctor is not perfect, but he does not whine like a child either.

The Doctor: There's no point being grown-up if you can't be childish sometimes.

I knew that quote would be used against me. But at least the Doctor knew when to act grown up and when to act childlike.

Maybe it's not childishness but rather senility. If you can believe the 11th Doctor then he is a 1000 years + so anything he does wouldn't surprise me in the least.

 

[Christopher]

I don't think "whine like a child" is a fair assessment. He wasn't upset about eating his vegetables or going to the dentist. He was faced with his impending death, in a sense -- the Doctor would live on, but the personality and nature he had now would be changed into something different, and in a way the person he was would die. And this wasn't a death that came on him suddenly, but one he'd been warned about well in advance and had time to dwell on. I hardly think it's uncommon for, say, people with terminal diseases to go through phases of anger and bitterness, to rail against the universe at the unfairness of it all, and those of us who've never been there have no business judging them for it.

 

[CaptainMatt]

Well, you have your opinions and I have mine. Let's agree to differ and let the beast lie. I tire of this thread and discussion.

 

[Sci]

I don't think "whine like a child" is a fair assessment. He wasn't upset about eating his vegetables or going to the dentist. He was faced with his impending death, in a sense -- the Doctor would live on, but the personality and nature he had now would be changed into something different, and in a way the person he was would die. And this wasn't a death that came on him suddenly, but one he'd been warned about well in advance and had time to dwell on. I hardly think it's uncommon for, say, people with terminal diseases to go through phases of anger and bitterness, to rail against the universe at the unfairness of it all, and those of us who've never been there have no business judging them for it.

Exactly. And also: There's never a guarantee that the regeneration will work. Any time the Doctor regenerates, he runs the risk of the regeneration failing and him dying -- IF he's able to start a regeneration at all in the first place.

 

[Christopher]

And also: There's never a guarantee that the regeneration will work. Any time the Doctor regenerates, he runs the risk of the regeneration failing and him dying -- IF he's able to start a regeneration at all in the first place.

Good point. It's been established that if a Time Lord's injuries are too severe, the regeneration might not kick in; and we've seen in "Castrovalva" that there's a possibility a regeneration may be unstable and fail to take hold (although I took the consequence to be that he'd regenerate again rather than dying).

And of course he was on his tenth life out of thirteen. Losing his tenth life would leave him with only two spares, bringing him that much closer to mortality. It makes sense that regeneration would hit him harder emotionally the closer he gets to the end of his cycle.

 

[PorthosShadow]

And also: There's never a guarantee that the regeneration will work. Any time the Doctor regenerates, he runs the risk of the regeneration failing and him dying -- IF he's able to start a regeneration at all in the first place.

Good point. It's been established that if a Time Lord's injuries are too severe, the regeneration might not kick in; and we've seen in "Castrovalva" that there's a possibility a regeneration may be unstable and fail to take hold (although I took the consequence to be that he'd regenerate again rather than dying).

And of course he was on his tenth life out of thirteen. Losing his tenth life would leave him with only two spares, bringing him that much closer to mortality. It makes sense that regeneration would hit him harder emotionally the closer he gets to the end of his cycle.

I have to figure that for a Time Lord facing your mortality is a lot harder than it is for any of us mere mortals.