Prisons in Star Trek.
- Thread starter Yevetha
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Re: Priosns in Star Trek.
The Venus drug that Harry Mudd was transporting was apparently illegal, so was the "love potion" drug he was selling in the animated series.
After one of his previous convictions, Harry was sentenced to psychological treatment, instead of just jail time. Which he was uncomfortable about people knowing about.
A little electro-shock perhaps?
The Venus drug that Harry Mudd was transporting was apparently illegal, so was the "love potion" drug he was selling in the animated series.
After one of his previous convictions, Harry was sentenced to psychological treatment, instead of just jail time. Which he was uncomfortable about people knowing about.
A little electro-shock perhaps?
Re: Priosns in Star Trek.
TOS showed us two different types of insane asylums for criminals (a "regular" one for curables and a unique installation for a handful of incurables), and implied that all criminals are considered insane and placed in those asylums until they can be cured of criminality; Harry Mudd probably spent time in one of those, too.
We never heard of anybody going to jail in the original series or in TNG. In DS9, it was indicated that no matter what your crime - smuggling or attempted genocide - you got six months, which thus probably wasn't for punishment. Rather, the criminal might spend those six months in therapy, after which he or she is cured of the specific crime and will never conduct it again. Or at least Kasidy Yates never smuggled again AFAWK, Garak never attempted genocide again, etc.
In general, criminals in Trek apparently don't get punished; perhaps this has been found to be ineffective in discouraging either the criminals or others from repeating the crime. We don't hear of freedom-deprivation sentences or fines or physical or chemical torture or things like that, except in connection with non-UFP criminals and justice systems.
OTOH, in DS9, enemy combatants (mainly Vorta and Maquis) were kept jailed, apparently mainly for interrogation. It was never implied that they would have been charged with wrongdoing, though. War crimes were never considered to be an issue for the UFP court system; Bajorans, Cardassians and whatnot had a more archaic sense of justice, though.
I doubt any Jem'Hadar would ever have been captured...
Timo Saloniemi
TOS showed us two different types of insane asylums for criminals (a "regular" one for curables and a unique installation for a handful of incurables), and implied that all criminals are considered insane and placed in those asylums until they can be cured of criminality; Harry Mudd probably spent time in one of those, too.
We never heard of anybody going to jail in the original series or in TNG. In DS9, it was indicated that no matter what your crime - smuggling or attempted genocide - you got six months, which thus probably wasn't for punishment. Rather, the criminal might spend those six months in therapy, after which he or she is cured of the specific crime and will never conduct it again. Or at least Kasidy Yates never smuggled again AFAWK, Garak never attempted genocide again, etc.
In general, criminals in Trek apparently don't get punished; perhaps this has been found to be ineffective in discouraging either the criminals or others from repeating the crime. We don't hear of freedom-deprivation sentences or fines or physical or chemical torture or things like that, except in connection with non-UFP criminals and justice systems.
OTOH, in DS9, enemy combatants (mainly Vorta and Maquis) were kept jailed, apparently mainly for interrogation. It was never implied that they would have been charged with wrongdoing, though. War crimes were never considered to be an issue for the UFP court system; Bajorans, Cardassians and whatnot had a more archaic sense of justice, though.
I doubt any Jem'Hadar would ever have been captured...
Timo Saloniemi
Re: Priosns in Star Trek.
Before he joined Voyager's crew, Tom Paris was in a Federation prison in New Zealand. Bashir's father served time at this same facility as well. We never saw what it was like, although I'm guessing it was fairly benign.
Similarly, Ro Laren was also imprisoned (different facility) before she signed on the Enterprise-D. We never saw this place either. Although unlike the New Zealand one, this place apparently was for Starfleet only. She called it a 'stockade'.
As for the Jem'Hadar? No way would they allow themselves to be captured alive. They'd kill themselves first.
Before he joined Voyager's crew, Tom Paris was in a Federation prison in New Zealand. Bashir's father served time at this same facility as well. We never saw what it was like, although I'm guessing it was fairly benign.
Similarly, Ro Laren was also imprisoned (different facility) before she signed on the Enterprise-D. We never saw this place either. Although unlike the New Zealand one, this place apparently was for Starfleet only. She called it a 'stockade'.
As for the Jem'Hadar? No way would they allow themselves to be captured alive. They'd kill themselves first.
Re: Priosns in Star Trek.
There, I answered all the questions in under three minutes.
Where's my coconut?
Big ones.
Yes.
Depends on the drug. Caffeine is legal. Crystal Meth is still a big no no.
What about them?
Again, what about them?
Only if they eat their greens.
There, I answered all the questions in under three minutes.
Where's my coconut?
Re: Priosns in Star Trek.
Wasn't the female founder going to face "war crimes," after the Dominion admitted defeat and signed a treaty.
^ Yes, she agreed to stand trial for war crimes and was imprisoned in the maximum security facility at Ananke Alpha.
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I always greatly disliked how series after TOS back-slid on this issue. A sign of our times, I suppose. Last week several news stories pointed out that between 1980 and 2000 the American prison population more than tripled. More than 6 million Americans are now in jail, prison, or on parole or probation. Surely there is a better way, if not in our own time, then in the future.
Here's a good question, is there any crime in the Federation? I assume most of the crimes based around economic need are gone, but what about crimes of passion? Also are no serial killers in the federation? Many serial killers are people who are born as psychopaths, without a sense of empathy. Are there no psychopaths in the Federation? If they are not, how did the Federation manage get rid of psychopathy? Psychopathy is incurable, its not a mental disease like psychosis, a psychopath knows the difference between right and wrong, they just don't care.
^^
Lon Suder was certainly a psychopath, so I would say that the Federation still had to deal with such mentally unstable people. In Voyager we don't get to see how the Federation would have dealt with such a person, but I'm sure that a system was in place to deal cases such as Suder's.
Lon Suder was certainly a psychopath, so I would say that the Federation still had to deal with such mentally unstable people. In Voyager we don't get to see how the Federation would have dealt with such a person, but I'm sure that a system was in place to deal cases such as Suder's.
Well I think the Federation would need prisons for psychopaths and they would likely be need to locked away for the rest of their lives if they committed really violent offenses. If you have a serial killer like Ted Bundy, you can't just release them in 6 months. A lot of serial killers are also serial rapists and they rape and kill their victims, not because of sexual desire but for a desire of having power and control over other people. Such a person likely would not "get better" in 6 months and would be a danger to the rest of the community if allowed free.
There will always be crime. Crime can exist for reasons other than property. Aiding and abetting the Maquis was a crime (Kasidy), to say nothing about actual offenses commited BY them (Paris, Eddington).
Then there's genetic engineering, which is also a crime under Federation law if it's done for any reason other than to correct serious birth defects. Richard Bashir accepted a sentence for having this done to Julian.
Also, possession of certain dangerous substances (biomemetic gel) is also a crime in the Federation.
And remember "Who Mourns for Morn"? A Federation member world's central bank was robbed - obviously that's a crime.
Tom was rotting in a "penal colony", the exact same terminology also used for the asylum of "Dagger of the Mind". So we're apparently just seeing an Earthside example of the asylum system, with therapy rather than freedom deprivation at the core of Tom's stay.
But yes, Dick Bashir in turn explicitly said he was going to prison. And for two years rather than six months. A deviation from the Trek norm there...
That only happened in the novels.
In the series itself, the Founder agreed to stand trial for "what she's done", without any mention of the concept of "war crime". As far as we know, she was found not guilty of anything punishable and released well before the signing of the peace treaty. (What other sentence would have been possible, really, with the accusing party every bit as guilty on all counts, not to mention under the guns of a superior military force?)
I'd think such cases would be the least of their worries. A clear-cut villain would not get sympathy, and thus the full force of brainwashing techniques could be used on him or her - and from TOS we know that such techniques are 100% effective, even if they might not meet our criteria of humane treatment. So Ted Bundy would be in and out in two weeks, and would never kill again. (He might have real trouble eating a steak, though, what with his mortal fear of knives and all...)
It must be helluva lot more difficult to weed crime out of Harry Mudd, without reducing him to a shell of a man. The first bout of therapy apparently did stop him from repeating his original crimes, but he soon invented others!
Well, the jury is still out on whether Bolarus is a member world.
Timo Saloniemi
^ It is. See DS9's "The Forsaken".
As for the Founder leader: it seems obvious she is indeed going to be tried for war crimes. What else could it possibly be? She personally ordered the genocide of the Cardassians. If that's not a war crime...
As for the Founder leader: it seems obvious she is indeed going to be tried for war crimes. What else could it possibly be? She personally ordered the genocide of the Cardassians. If that's not a war crime...
Of course someone could argue that rewriting someone's personality is more distopian then utopian, arguing that takes away someone's free will. Not something the American Civil Liberties Union would approve of.
Plus if they couldn't cure Harry Mudd, how would cure a hard core psychopath, these guys will try find some other way to hurt and dominate people.
Everybody's utopia is somebody's dystopia. And American Civil Liberties Union and the Nazi Party would not look all that distinct to somebody watching from the Trek 23rd century. If something about the brave new world of Trek stays true to what we know of today's timid old one, it's that people of the past will be barbarians who neither understood nor respected fundamental human rights. Or indeed were racist enough to call them "human rights"...
TOS often marketed ideas that were not part and parcel of the 1960s United States; some of the ideas were futuristic; others, more like atavistic. The point isn't whether they were good or bad predictions of the future - it's that they helped set the stories apart from the timeframe of their telling. Advocating brainwashing as an alternative to torturing and executing in crime management was a bold thing for TOS to do; it's a bit sad that the spinoff shows didn't continue this trend, but it's not a big problem, because they found other controversial things to advocate, just for the sake of argument.
"War crime" is part of the Trek rhetoric only in the mouths of aliens. Well, Dukat in "Waltz" thinks he's going to be tried for those by the UFP, but Sisko isn't really in agreement.
Timo Saloniemi
TOS often marketed ideas that were not part and parcel of the 1960s United States; some of the ideas were futuristic; others, more like atavistic. The point isn't whether they were good or bad predictions of the future - it's that they helped set the stories apart from the timeframe of their telling. Advocating brainwashing as an alternative to torturing and executing in crime management was a bold thing for TOS to do; it's a bit sad that the spinoff shows didn't continue this trend, but it's not a big problem, because they found other controversial things to advocate, just for the sake of argument.
That's a bit too 20th century a viewpoint. It seems that everybody orders genocide in the average war; certainly the UFP did in this one, too. What fun would it be if it were to be Nürnberg all over again, with the winners accusing the losers of (among other things) the very deeds that the accusers did to secure their victory? Especially with the victory thing left somewhat unclear.
"War crime" is part of the Trek rhetoric only in the mouths of aliens. Well, Dukat in "Waltz" thinks he's going to be tried for those by the UFP, but Sisko isn't really in agreement.
Timo Saloniemi
Blame the so-called "War on Drugs" for some of that, since a lot of folks jailed are non-violent offenders who are in there simply because they had some weed or dope on them.
Like any war, the war on drugs is mainly to make money. Same with stuff like prostitution and so on. Or put away people who are 'dangerous' to the power hungry folks.
My question is....what do the Section 31 assholes do to prisoners? I can picture them like what UNIT did to Toshiko in Torchwood when she was forced to steal/get some technology to try and save her mom, she got treated pretty much like an animal in a dirty, dingy dungeon of a prison, and probably without a fair trial, either. I could see Section 31 run prisons similar to Guantanamo or the Hanoi Hilton. Plus I could see the folks running those not only horribly torture and execute prisoners, but enjoy doing it, while using the security to the Federation, no matter the cost excuse.
I don't really see the need for excuses there. Star Trek technology provides for some pretty nasty and futuristic ways to kidnap and torture people without the need for a "covert organization"; the pervs out there could just purchase themselves the necessary hardware and indulge themselves, down to and including wearing the silly leather uniforms, and still they wouldn't have to declare themselves a UFP-protecting collection of heroes. Unless they wanted to, of course.
If you're covert, you aren't abusing authority, since you have none. You're just abusing relative power, which is something available to any regular Joe or Jane.
Timo Saloniemi
If you're covert, you aren't abusing authority, since you have none. You're just abusing relative power, which is something available to any regular Joe or Jane.
Timo Saloniemi
The best prison seen onscreen in any Star Trek I have seen has to be Rhura penthe, from both STVI and later in the ENT episode. It was mean and it was tough.
No one was expected to surive very long down there.
No one was expected to surive very long down there.
What was the point of bothering, then? It would have been much cheaper for the Empire to execute all these would-be inmates on the spot with a disruptor blast, rather than haul them across interstellar distances to a place that required expensive personnel to supervise.
It's not as if the forced labor could have contributed much to the dilithium mining with their primitive tools.. And conversely, if dilithium from Rura Penthe were strategically important, its mining would not be trusted to criminals and enemy agents.
Timo Saloniemi
It's not as if the forced labor could have contributed much to the dilithium mining with their primitive tools.. And conversely, if dilithium from Rura Penthe were strategically important, its mining would not be trusted to criminals and enemy agents.
Timo Saloniemi
