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TOS- Overrated?

... but that's why we have the Prime Directive, to remind us that our instincts, our intuitions and our common sense that cries "let's educate and civilize these brutes" is wrong.

Seems that Jean-Luc Picard disagrees with you...

Reunion said:
The High Council would seem to agree. They consider the matter closed. I don't. Mister Worf, the Enterprise crew currently includes representatives from thirteen planets. They each have their individual beliefs and values and I respect them all. But they have all chosen to serve Starfleet. If anyone cannot perform his or her duty because of the demands of their society, they should resign. Do you wish to resign?

He doesn't even respect Worf's ability to remedy a legal situation on a Klingon vessel, which is outside Starfleet jurisdiction.

Next Gen is chock full of stuff like this. We respect your view as long as it doesn't contradict ours.
 
Your translation was very funny. Kudos. I am a Social Democrat, too, what a cool coincidence! Let's hear it for the welfare state!


(so how can you be a Social Democrat and have Socially Darwinist views on the PD? )


by the way, Human cultures disagree on ethics too, so bringing in alien cultures changes little in that sense.
You and I have far more in common than we have with a Klingon. We value life, he values death, he values aristocracy, we value democracy. The only way to peacefully coexist is to not force our values upon him. Lets be honest, who doesn't feel at least that this wouldn't be too bad, if these foul-smelling brutes learned to regularly take a bath, to eat normal food, to stop their fights, to drop their honour concept ... but that's why we have the Prime Directive, to remind us that our instincts, our intuitions and our common sense that cries "let's educate and civilize these brutes" is wrong.

The question is, how come you watch Trek if it is advocates social Darwinism? To adress your question seriously, let's take "Dear Doctor", probably the Trek story which is closest to your PD reading to illustrate why it is a wrong reading.
Phlox might claim it is about evolution but it actually is about the power structure of two groups.
If you help the Valakans you gotta help the Menk unless you wanna empower the former at the cost of the latter. You help both groups and before you blink you are the alien force behind a civil war.

Starfleet is not out there to either assist A at the cost of B or in order to set up A against B and vice versa. Or in other words, it might seem like help on the first glance but once you actually think about you realize that it is actually favourism or something even worse.


compare the ethics of a pacifist Quaker to the ethics of a Nazi.

why is it so different for alien cultures? Your entire argument rests on an arbitrary distinction.


I watch Star Trek because it's entertaining and often thought-provoking.


why do you advocate fictional policies that clash with your political beliefs?
 
... but that's why we have the Prime Directive, to remind us that our instincts, our intuitions and our common sense that cries "let's educate and civilize these brutes" is wrong.

Seems that Jean-Luc Picard disagrees with you...

Reunion said:
The High Council would seem to agree. They consider the matter closed. I don't. Mister Worf, the Enterprise crew currently includes representatives from thirteen planets. They each have their individual beliefs and values and I respect them all. But they have all chosen to serve Starfleet. If anyone cannot perform his or her duty because of the demands of their society, they should resign. Do you wish to resign?

He doesn't even respect Worf's ability to remedy a legal situation on a Klingon vessel, which is outside Starfleet jurisdiction.

Next Gen is chock full of stuff like this. We respect your view as long as it doesn't contradict ours.
You know very well that this is a conflict between Worf, the Klingon and Worf, the Starfleet officer, a conflict between two social roles.
If you are a Frenchman and serve in the US Army and the French are currently at war with the Brits while the Americans have declared their neutrality you can't fight for your country as a member of the US Army.
 
why do you advocate fictional policies that clash with your political beliefs?
I just explained why your Social Darwinism reading is wrong. if you don't take the time to read it or to write a real response to it this is not an actual discussion.
Talking about accusations, why do you advocate imperialism, comrade? Why do you want to take the land of the Ba'ku?
 
... but that's why we have the Prime Directive, to remind us that our instincts, our intuitions and our common sense that cries "let's educate and civilize these brutes" is wrong.

Seems that Jean-Luc Picard disagrees with you...

Reunion said:
The High Council would seem to agree. They consider the matter closed. I don't. Mister Worf, the Enterprise crew currently includes representatives from thirteen planets. They each have their individual beliefs and values and I respect them all. But they have all chosen to serve Starfleet. If anyone cannot perform his or her duty because of the demands of their society, they should resign. Do you wish to resign?

He doesn't even respect Worf's ability to remedy a legal situation on a Klingon vessel, which is outside Starfleet jurisdiction.

Next Gen is chock full of stuff like this. We respect your view as long as it doesn't contradict ours.
You know very well that this is a conflict between Worf, the Klingon and Worf, the Starfleet officer, a conflict between two social roles.
If you are a Frenchman and serve in the US Army and the French are currently at war with the Brits while the Americans have declared their neutrality you can't fight for your country as a member of the US Army.

It wasn't a war, it's a legal matter that was solved by Klingon law. Being a citizen of the Empire, Worf had every right to pursue legal remedy via Klingon law.
 
It wasn't a war, it's a legal matter that was solved by Klingon law. Being a citizen of the Empire, Worf had every right to pursue legal remedy via Klingon law.
My mistake, I thought the quote is from Redemption. My point is nonetheless valid, during this conflict Worf was torn between his two roles and Picard assisted him the entire time. Note that the role issue is clearly visible when Picard took his role as Worf's assistant or second or whatever and Worf told him to be silent. It was clear that he is now speaking as Worf, the Klingon to Picard, his second and not as Worf, the Starfleet officer to Picard, his captain.


Well what exactly do you call withholding a plague serum?
Not genocide. Not helping the Jews, Indians or Armenians when an actual genocide happened does not constitute an act of genocide so not helping a species which MIGHT become extinct because of a disease does not constitute an act of genocide either.
 
why do you advocate fictional policies that clash with your political beliefs?
I just explained why your Social Darwinism reading is wrong. if you don't take the time to read it or to write a real response to it this is not an actual discussion.
Talking about accusations, why do you advocate imperialism, comrade? Why do you want to take the land of the Ba'ku?


humanitarian aid or help is not imperialism.

your viewpoint seems to be speciesist-you favor helping Humans yet if we advocate helping alien civilizations, that's "imperialist."


Seems a funny attitude for a man of the Left such as yourself to take.


We are more divided by class than by Human/alien;)
 
Since when is "humanitarian aid" a euphemism for stealing a planet and forcefully relocating a people? If you did such things in the real world you'd end up in Den Hague.
 
Since when is "humanitarian aid" a euphemism for stealing a planet and forcefully relocating a people?

I don't know. I went into quite a bit of detail on how the Ba'ku could be in danger now that the secret of metaphasic particles was out.

But then I keep getting accused of not taking into possible consequences of actions... so who knows? :rolleyes:
 
We did help the Jews and are still continuing to help the Jews. We saved the Indians from ourselves. LOL. Palistinians are next on the help list. Everybody theoretically needs help or are lying that they do but if they taxed beer 3 cents to help starving orphans would that really hurt you?
 
Since when is "humanitarian aid" a euphemism for stealing a planet and forcefully relocating a people?

I don't know. I went into quite a bit of detail on how the Ba'ku could be in danger now that the secret of metaphasic particles was out.

But then I keep getting accused of not taking into possible consequences of actions... so who knows? :rolleyes:
They are not Federation citizens, they do not wish to be forced to do your biding, they are not interested in what benevolent Gods command them. They don't wish to be raped, they wish to be left in peace. You know, sovereignty, free will, deciding your own fate, pursuit of happiness, individual liberty and so on.
Seems strange that a German has to point out to an American what makes America so great and inspiring.
 
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That Admiral was hardly benevolant any more than Captain Tracy was which is why I didn't like the move so much because it was the same story.
 
We did help the Jews and are still continuing to help the Jews. We saved the Indians from ourselves. LOL. Palistinians are next on the help list. Everybody theoretically needs help or are lying that they do but if they taxed beer 3 cents to help starving orphans would that really hurt you?
If you refer to Israel, the economy of this country is strong enough.
If you refer to Jews let me just say Marx, Freud and Einstein. If anything Jews helped us stupid Gentiles.

I am a lefty, leave the working man's beer alone and tax the lobster. ;)
 
Just out of curiosity,

Marx - Communism

Einstein - The atomic bomb

Freud - The pharmasuedical conglomerite

The last one may be pushing it. If Ben Franklyn discovered electricity, it doesn't mean he's responsible for the electric chair or mtv.
 
You confuse Marx with Stalinist horrors and Freud with medicine in general. Einstein did indeed initially advocate the bomb but later changed his mind.
What these three Jews have in common is that they fundamentally changed they way we think about ourselves and the universe. If anything good has come out of the ugly treatment of Jews as outsiders in Europe which culminated in the Shoa it can be found in such great minds.
 
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