Making Einstein personally responsible for the atomic bomb is pushing it too, cf. Ben Franklin and the electric chair.
TOS- Overrated?
- Thread starter AdmiralScreed
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Making Einstein personally responsible for the atomic bomb is pushing it too, cf. Ben Franklin and the electric chair.
No need to apologize. I would join in the discussion, but there are so many posts I would have to catch up on, and frankly I don't have the time to go through all of them.
Carry on with your nice friendly chat.
They are not Federation citizens, they do not wish to be forced to do your biding, they are not interested in what benevolent Gods command them. They don't wish to be raped, they wish to be left in peace. You know, sovereignty, free will, deciding your own fate, pursuit of happiness, individual liberty and so on.
I don't know. I went into quite a bit of detail on how the Ba'ku could be in danger now that the secret of metaphasic particles was out.
But then I keep getting accused of not taking into possible consequences of actions... so who knows?
Seems strange that a German has to point out to an American what makes America so great and inspiring.
wait, so you're a German Social Democrat? You a fan of Kurt Schumacher(sp?) and Eduard Bernstein? Those guys are two heroes of the Left.
And as for the Federation operation in the Briar Patch, it was meant to bring medical benefits to billions, I'd count that as humanitarian in goal.
Is TOS overrated? I really don't think that can really be addressed considering the circumstances surrounding TOS's popularity are very different than circumstances surrounding the popularity of the spin-offs (TNG in particular).
However, I concede this: TOS is a good show, but some people take it too seriously and place it on an impossible pedestal.
However, I concede this: TOS is a good show, but some people take it too seriously and place it on an impossible pedestal.
I don't know Bernstein, only Schumacher and how could one not admire a comrade with such integrity and willpower.
Metaphasic radiation could indeed help billions but I would not want medicine with blood on it. Then again the Federation was not aware that the Ba'ku are not a pre-warp civilisation and that they could simply politely ask them whether they would share the resorces of their planet. But then again their lovely allies, the So'na, withheld this information from them and later stabbed them in the back.
Medical advancements are great but not if the price is to deport people and work together with a bunch of thugs.
well, here we come to agreement. I do think a better outcome would have been negotiation-terms of compensation could have been reached for one thing.
The problem with that is the writing of the movie itself. As you say, the Federation didn't know they weren't a primitive culture-once they discovered this, negotiations could have been conducted out into the open.
But the movie needed conflict. So the question was never brought up, because if the Baku agree, there's no conflict, and if they outright refuse, Picard may still have taken their side, but they would have looked selfish and unsympathetic to the audience.
But yes, negotiations instead of deceptive removal would have been preferable had all parties been open with each other.
Ideally, Insurrection should've never went forward with such a contrived, potentially one sided ethical dilemma. We would've gotten a much better and emotionally charged film if they had went with Piller's original Heart of Darkness treatment.
Let's have three cheers for actors sticking their collective noses where they don't belong.
I totally agree, INS is not written particularly well and a focus upon the political side of the story instead of the mixture between some looming political issues in the background, simple heroics (but then again only the best Trek movies like TWOK, TUC and FC avoid simplistic good guy vs. bad guy patterns) and humour surely would have been better. They couldn't decide whether they wanted a DS9-like story or something bright and light-hearted after FC.
Nice that we all finally agree on something.
Nice that we all finally agree on something.
I totally agree, INS is not written particularly well and a focus upon the political side of the story instead of the mixture between some looming political issues in the background, simple heroics (but then again only the best Trek movies like TWOK, TUC and FC avoid simplistic good guy vs. bad guy patterns) and humour surely would have been better. They couldn't decide whether they wanted a DS9-like story or something bright and light-hearted after FC.
Nice that we all finally agree on something.
They were definitely set to go dark again, but it was nixed by Patrick Stewart who didn't want to do another dark film.
The Making of Star Trek: Insurrection is available for free if you do a Google search and is written by Michael Piller. It details the the process from original pitch to completed film.
Actually Anij had a relationship with the Admiral too behind Picard's back which is why the Admiral didn't want to deal with them. Can you blame him? He hates 300 year old women who pretend like they're 40. Especially if they don't want to give that secret up. Picard protected her right not to give up that secret so that all men would look like him - an old fart.
The original series is Star Trek. Next Generation, DS9, Voyager and Enterprise aren't. Personally I could never tolerate Next Generation because a robot who wants to make mistakes, grow old and die is just not believable. Can't believe in the characters. DS9 just isn't very good by any sensible standard. And while Voyager's more episodic format allowed many more good stories than DS9's serialized format (plus Berman had gotten better,) it is still derivative from Star Trek. Enterprise was rather different from Star Trek but overall I don't think there's any contest: Star Trek was the best.
In my lifetime, I have watched TNG, DS9, Voyager, and TOS, in that order.
By current standards, TOS most certainly doesn't hold up in terms of special effects, plot, story, etc.
But to me, TOS just has the 'it' factor better. Also, you have to realize that it is the prototype for almost all the other series that came out.
TOS was interesting in the fact that it didn't try to dazzle you with technology. (It really couldn't, because it was not budgeted for ultra effects, this WAS the 60's after all.) It was a story about beings in the future. TNG was a step up in terms of everything, but it puts technology ahead of the beings in the galaxy. It's still good, and I like it.
I won't go out and say that TOS is the best out of all of them, but it's certainly my favorite, and paved the way for the movies and shows to be made? How overrated can it be if it accomplished that?
By current standards, TOS most certainly doesn't hold up in terms of special effects, plot, story, etc.
But to me, TOS just has the 'it' factor better. Also, you have to realize that it is the prototype for almost all the other series that came out.
TOS was interesting in the fact that it didn't try to dazzle you with technology. (It really couldn't, because it was not budgeted for ultra effects, this WAS the 60's after all.) It was a story about beings in the future. TNG was a step up in terms of everything, but it puts technology ahead of the beings in the galaxy. It's still good, and I like it.
I won't go out and say that TOS is the best out of all of them, but it's certainly my favorite, and paved the way for the movies and shows to be made? How overrated can it be if it accomplished that?
The SFX of TOS looked the most realistic to me. The fan films now even do better SFX than TNG did, which looked the cheesiest of all of them and most unrealistic. Enterprise SFX was starting to get good and much better witht the Xindi arc. That water planet was awesome and the Zindi ship battles and destruction too, especially that aquatic vessel. RB must have realized ratings went up during Voyager when they put more money into SFX so they did so with ENT. but most of the mill five went into their pocket, er I mean Denorious belt until milking the golden goose was producing diminishing returns and run into the ground grinding metal dragging sparks running over itself. Ripley is playing the Part of Braga from Aliens after the wipe out. As far as I know, Hicks hasn't arrived on the scene yet to save the franchise which has taken center stage in an alien three ring circus with you know who as the sadistic ringleader. I hope he gets eaten by a tiger. Well, it's better for twelve hungry mediocre tigers to eat than one tiger to eat too much. Live by the sword, die by the sword. Rick Berman is engorged.
On a side related note I was just thinking about Einstein endorsing the A-bomb. Hi, I'm Albert Einstein. Behind me is old nellie - we call her the peacemaker. I created it and I fully endorse it's use. Now back to your regularly schedualed cartoons.
On a side related note I was just thinking about Einstein endorsing the A-bomb. Hi, I'm Albert Einstein. Behind me is old nellie - we call her the peacemaker. I created it and I fully endorse it's use. Now back to your regularly schedualed cartoons.
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Well... if you want realistic in terms of TOS or TNG, you'd have to cut out all those nice sound FX of the space battles; you wouldn't hear a phaser firing, or proton torpedoes.
Thread summary:
OP: Is TOS over-rated? I found it dramatically stretched at points.
(8 pages later) Well, YOU obviously don't understand the Prime Directive!!
(20 pages later) What about the moral implications of Metaphasic Radiation then?!
Ok, I skimmed over all that stuff.
Despite being a huge TOS fan, the OP has a somewhat valid point. TOS episodes are built around one big dramatic conflict that requires extraordinary decisions from the main characters. However if you aren't "hooked" by the drama, then the episodes can be predictable and flat.
On the other hand, TNG often had episodes based around very insignificant personal matters. (And then X learned a valuable lesson...) In the context of the whole series, these episodes built up the characters for the big dramatic finales. But as standalone shows they often seemed plodding and pointless.
People treat Star Trek like library material nowdays. Rather than sitting down and powering through a bunch of episodes, ask yourself if you would make special plans to stay home and watch it. On that count, TOS wins overall IMO.
OP: Is TOS over-rated? I found it dramatically stretched at points.
(8 pages later) Well, YOU obviously don't understand the Prime Directive!!
(20 pages later) What about the moral implications of Metaphasic Radiation then?!
Ok, I skimmed over all that stuff.
Despite being a huge TOS fan, the OP has a somewhat valid point. TOS episodes are built around one big dramatic conflict that requires extraordinary decisions from the main characters. However if you aren't "hooked" by the drama, then the episodes can be predictable and flat.
On the other hand, TNG often had episodes based around very insignificant personal matters. (And then X learned a valuable lesson...) In the context of the whole series, these episodes built up the characters for the big dramatic finales. But as standalone shows they often seemed plodding and pointless.
People treat Star Trek like library material nowdays. Rather than sitting down and powering through a bunch of episodes, ask yourself if you would make special plans to stay home and watch it. On that count, TOS wins overall IMO.
^^ Urgent note to xortex: Contact your pharmacy immediately. They gave you the wrong medication!
Thanks Frued. Is that where they got the word fraud from? I think so - like scam artist, snakeskin oil salesman, charlatan quack.
Thread summary:
OP: Is TOS over-rated? I found it dramatically stretched at points.
(8 pages later) Well, YOU obviously don't understand the Prime Directive!!
(20 pages later) What about the moral implications of Metaphasic Radiation then?!
Ok, I skimmed over all that stuff.
Despite being a huge TOS fan, the OP has a somewhat valid point. TOS episodes are built around one big dramatic conflict that requires extraordinary decisions from the main characters. However if you aren't "hooked" by the drama, then the episodes can be predictable and flat.
On the other hand, TNG often had episodes based around very insignificant personal matters. (And then X learned a valuable lesson...) In the context of the whole series, these episodes built up the characters for the big dramatic finales. But as standalone shows they often seemed plodding and pointless.
People treat Star Trek like library material nowdays. Rather than sitting down and powering through a bunch of episodes, ask yourself if you would make special plans to stay home and watch it. On that count, TOS wins overall IMO.
this is an interesting observation. TOS does often seem "bigger" and more theatrical than TNG, which, as you say, featured a big chunk of episodes that were about LaForge's dating problems, whether Riker should dye his hair a darker shade, etc.
In fact, Q mocks exactly this tendency in "AGT" with that line about how they've had Data's exploration of his character, and Troi's psychobabble.
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