Improving Season 7

[Dukhat]

BTW: Needless to say, I most strongly and vehemently disagree with the denunciation and genral shrug-off of Ezri Dax by Dukhat. Claiming she is "whiny" because she is open and honest about her vulnerabilities is a most unfortunate mischaracterization.

You can strongly and vehemently disagree with me all you want, but it won't change my opinion that she was a little whiny crybaby with emotional and family issues that was really unnecessary to bring into the final season of the show.

Furthermore, as to the argument that Ezri's presence ruins the effect of "people die in war"...ah, no, just the opposite. Her presence--and the other characters adjusting to it--is the living embodiment of people acknowledging death--and recovering. Remember the emotional support Jake noted that Ezri provided to Sisko, just by her being there. The same goes for Julian Bashir...and, eventually, for Worf. Many were the references to the fact that Jadzia was dead.

And if that were the real reason she was brought onto the show, that would have been fine. But it wasn't. She was brought onto the show to provide awkward sexual tension silliness between Worf and Bashir, not emotional support. These people are supposed to be right in the middle of a war, and Julian is acting like a high-school kid worrying whether Ezri likes him or not.

After all--what would be the alternative? Having the characters sit back and reflect on "I wish Jadzia were here..." reminiscing, expressing grief at her death--to the point of it getting old? Or having them "get over it", and then not really bring it up--which would have been nonsensical?

I'd bet that most of the crew would have just gotten on with their lives just like the TNG crew did when Tasha Yar died, and the audience wouldn't have given a shit. Jadzia was the most unpopular DS9 character. The fact that she got killed, and that Worf avenged her death with his attack on the Dominion base, would have been enough of a conclusion to the character.

 

[Satyrquaze]

^Expanding it into two seasons. More of everything--except red-eye Dukat...and the Worf/Ezri tension. Both of those had the time they deserved. I'd have loved to have seen Bashir and Ezri come together near the end of season 7--and show them together in season 8, to the point that, in the finale, he proposes, and she joyfully accepts.

Let's face it. As excellent a season as it is, the Final Chapter in particular felt a bit rushed.

This is quite possibly the first post I've seen of yours that I've agreed with...

 

[Rush Limborg]

BTW: Needless to say, I most strongly and vehemently disagree with the denunciation and genral shrug-off of Ezri Dax by Dukhat. Claiming she is "whiny" because she is open and honest about her vulnerabilities is a most unfortunate mischaracterization.

You can strongly and vehemently disagree with me all you want, but it won't change my opinion that she was a little whiny crybaby with emotional and family issues that was really unnecessary to bring into the final season of the show.

And I'm not trying to change your opinion--your wording implies such is impossible. I'm simply going on the record as to why I disagree.

Furthermore, as to the argument that Ezri's presence ruins the effect of "people die in war"...ah, no, just the opposite. Her presence--and the other characters adjusting to it--is the living embodiment of people acknowledging death--and recovering. Remember the emotional support Jake noted that Ezri provided to Sisko, just by her being there. The same goes for Julian Bashir...and, eventually, for Worf. Many were the references to the fact that Jadzia was dead.

And if that were the real reason she was brought onto the show, that would have been fine. But it wasn't. She was brought onto the show to provide awkward sexual tension silliness between Worf and Bashir, not emotional support.

I strongly recommend you read the DS9 Companion, by Terry J. Erdmann and Paula M. Block. There, the boys in charge go into exactly why they created the character of Ezri.

These people are supposed to be right in the middle of a war, and Julian is acting like a high-school kid worrying whether Ezri likes him or not.

Ah...excuse me? That was only...one episode ("When It Rains...")--and that was just in man-to-man conversation with O'Brien.

After all--what would be the alternative? Having the characters sit back and reflect on "I wish Jadzia were here..." reminiscing, expressing grief at her death--to the point of it getting old? Or having them "get over it", and then not really bring it up--which would have been nonsensical?

I'd bet that most of the crew would have just gotten on with their lives just like the TNG crew did when Tasha Yar died, and the audience wouldn't have given a shit. Jadzia was the most unpopular DS9 character.

A lot of fans here would disagree with you on that. "Most unpopular DS9 character"? A most odd claim to make (Kai Winn? Vedek Bareil? Keiko O'Brien? Michael Eddington? Even Vic Fontaine?)--unless you have polling data to that effect....

The fact that she got killed, and that Worf avenged her death with his attack on the Dominion base, would have been enough of a conclusion to the character.

And Sisko would still have his problems.

Again, I seriously doubt most of the audience would have accepted such a void. Tasha was only on for 2/3 of a season. Jadzia was on for six full seasons.

^Expanding it into two seasons. More of everything--except red-eye Dukat...and the Worf/Ezri tension. Both of those had the time they deserved. I'd have loved to have seen Bashir and Ezri come together near the end of season 7--and show them together in season 8, to the point that, in the finale, he proposes, and she joyfully accepts.

Let's face it. As excellent a season as it is, the Final Chapter in particular felt a bit rushed.

This is quite possibly the first post I've seen of yours that I've agreed with...

Good to hear you do, good sir.

 

[Dukhat]

And I'm not trying to change your opinion--your wording implies such is impossible. I'm simply going on the record as to why I disagree.

That's cool

I strongly recommend you read the DS9 Companion, by Terry J. Erdmann and Paula M. Block. There, the boys in charge go into exactly why they created the character of Ezri.

I own that book, and honestly I'm not all that interested in why they say they created Ezri, because my opinion about her character being a mistake is not going to change, as you correctly pointed out.

A lot of fans here would disagree with you on that. "Most unpopular DS9 character"? A most odd claim to make (Kai Winn? Vedek Bareil? Keiko O'Brien? Michael Eddington? Even Vic Fontaine?)--unless you have polling data to that effect....

I was referring to her being the most unpopular character of the main cast. IIRC, at one point TPTB were considering getting rid of the character altogether.

Again, I seriously doubt most of the audience would have accepted such a void. Tasha was only on for 2/3 of a season. Jadzia was on for six full seasons.

An unpopular character is an unpopular character, no matter how long they were on the show.

 

[Satyrquaze]

Good to hear you do, good sir.

In the future: I should really not allow your avatar to color my opinions on whether or not I should do more than gloss over your posts.

 

[Rush Limborg]

I strongly recommend you read the DS9 Companion, by Terry J. Erdmann and Paula M. Block. There, the boys in charge go into exactly why they created the character of Ezri.

I own that book, and honestly I'm not all that interested in why they say they created Ezri, because my opinion about her character being a mistake is not going to change, as you correctly pointed out.

All well and good...except you had said that such-and-such was the "reason" for Ezri being brought on to the cast. I was pointing out that that was not the case....

A lot of fans here would disagree with you on that. "Most unpopular DS9 character"? A most odd claim to make (Kai Winn? Vedek Bareil? Keiko O'Brien? Michael Eddington? Even Vic Fontaine?)--unless you have polling data to that effect....

I was referring to her being the most unpopular character of the main cast. IIRC, at one point TPTB were considering getting rid of the character altogether.

I recall fans and TPTB saying that about Bashir. This is the first I've heard of such things about Jadzia....

 

[Rush Limborg]

Good to hear you do, good sir.

In the future: I should really not allow your avatar to color my opinions on whether or not I should do more than gloss over your posts.

(Spock voice): Hmm. I would tend to agree.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

My complaints are the same we've heard many times before: red-eye Dukat, the Worf-Ezri-Bashir soap, Ezri in general, holosuite-fu, etc...no sense beating a dead targ.

The one thing I'd change is that the Federation should lose the war. Didn't see that coming, did ya?

Then the story could continue in a new series that wouldn't be ENT and would avoid all that BS. And be done by the DS9 creative team. It's a travesty they were allowed to break up.

 

[Josie]

My main complaint is the pathetic soap opera storylines (Winn/Dukat & Worf/Ezri/Bashir). They really made the series weaker.

Dump Vic Fontaine. I hated that cretin. Useless, annoying and completely undermined Ezri.

More episodes devoted to the war. I hated how disjointed the whole war felt. It should be unrelenting, not featured whenever they couldn't shoehorn Vic Fontaine in.

No Negas Zek or Rom.

Loosing the cartoon characters (Demented Dukat, feeble Adami, Sisko the "god")

No Pah-wraiths. Just embarrassing.

No hideous Sisko turns into some prophet. Leave the hokey religious crap alone please.

 

[Trek Survivor]

More episodes devoted to the war. I hated how disjointed the whole war felt. It should be unrelenting, not featured whenever they couldn't shoehorn Vic Fontaine in.

Sigh. This is exactly the opposite of what I wanted - LESS WAR PLEASE. No, it shouldn't be unrelenting - this is Star Trek, not Battlestar Galactica.

 

[Rush Limborg]

I liked Vic...and, along with a Season 8 extension, wish we'd have MORE of him.

Still, I see the "undermined Ezri" point. Still, I should point out that it was Ezri who manipulated Vic into forcing Nog into actual recovery.


And, as a religious man myself...I highly enjoyed the exploration of faiths in DS9.

 

[Skywalker]

Then the story could continue in a new series that wouldn't be ENT and would avoid all that BS. And be done by the DS9 creative team. It's a travesty they were allowed to break up.

I dunno, with the DS9 group's emphasis on darker and more realistic themes, experience with war/military arcs, and genuine fondness for TOS, I think they could have done an excellent job with an ENT-style series.

 

[Tulaberry whine]

After a pretty uneven start (the Bajoran blockade was a nonsensical detour in the first couple of episodes) I always thought season 7 turned out pretty good.

I have to say though I also get a little tired of people complaining about every episode not being about the war. It seems to me some people wanted DS9 to be like a dodgy Saturday morning cartoon in its final season - nothing but space ship battles.

And I keep coming across the frankly bizarre suggestion that during times of war people only concentrate on fighting. Of course, the idea that once war is declared everybody becomes sober and celibate is just ridiculous and we've seen time and time again that - if anything - the opposite is true.

And that's especially true for those people who are doing the actual fighting ...

 

[sonak]

After a pretty uneven start (the Bajoran blockade was a nonsensical detour in the first couple of episodes) I always thought season 7 turned out pretty good.

I have to say though I also get a little tired of people complaining about every episode not being about the war. It seems to me some people wanted DS9 to be like a dodgy Saturday morning cartoon in its final season - nothing but space ship battles.

And I keep coming across the frankly bizarre suggestion that during times of war people only concentrate on fighting. Of course, the idea that once war is declared everybody becomes sober and celibate is just ridiculous and we've seen time and time again that - if anything - the opposite is true.

And that's especially true for those people who are doing the actual fighting ...

except that they made it so that DS9 was on the front line of the war. It wasn't like they were on a station somewhere near Earth, they were right in the thick of things. With that, it does kind of strain credibility that they'd have time for holo-shenanigans like in "badda-bing, badda-bang," and "TMOTTH."

 

[Tulaberry whine]

After a pretty uneven start (the Bajoran blockade was a nonsensical detour in the first couple of episodes) I always thought season 7 turned out pretty good.

I have to say though I also get a little tired of people complaining about every episode not being about the war. It seems to me some people wanted DS9 to be like a dodgy Saturday morning cartoon in its final season - nothing but space ship battles.

And I keep coming across the frankly bizarre suggestion that during times of war people only concentrate on fighting. Of course, the idea that once war is declared everybody becomes sober and celibate is just ridiculous and we've seen time and time again that - if anything - the opposite is true.

And that's especially true for those people who are doing the actual fighting ...

except that they made it so that DS9 was on the front line of the war. It wasn't like they were on a station somewhere near Earth, they were right in the thick of things. With that, it does kind of strain credibility that they'd have time for holo-shenanigans like in "badda-bing, badda-bang," and "TMOTTH."

Not at all. It's not like the Jem Hadar were dug into trenches a few hundred yards away - it took hours just to reach Bajor from the station let alone the Cardassian border.

And how the idea of a conventional frontline would even work in space is beyond me.

IMHO, the idea that people on DS9 wouldn't be looking for ways to forget about the war for a few hours is a far greater stretch of credibility than having a space station capable fighting off fleets of ships by itself be constantly under attack. And once the wormhole became unusable to the Dominion, just what strategic value did DS9 have to them anyway?

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Then the story could continue in a new series that wouldn't be ENT and would avoid all that BS. And be done by the DS9 creative team. It's a travesty they were allowed to break up.

I dunno, with the DS9 group's emphasis on darker and more realistic themes, experience with war/military arcs, and genuine fondness for TOS, I think they could have done an excellent job with an ENT-style series.

The DS9 creative team would have been better on any topic, but I agree, a 22nd C series would have been a terrific topic for them as well. Ideally, they should do both (maybe not at the same time?)

And, as a religious man myself...I highly enjoyed the exploration of faiths in DS9.

I thought they missed some real opportunities, namely, better contrast of the Dominion and the Bajorans as examples of the bad and good ways of "doing religion," and to contrast Sisko's religious awakening with Starfleet's official atheism, to make the religious path a bit tougher on Sisko, more of a test of his faith.

 

[Rush Limborg]

^I see your point, on that. Still, I would actually venture to argue that Starfleet's orientation would be more along the lines of "hardcore agnosticism". By that, I mean healthy skepticism towards faiths...but no flat-out dismissal or condemnation, no angry hostility a la Richard Dawkins.

After all, Atheism is, in effect, an autimatic presumption that There Is No Higher Power. And as Kira noted to Keiko...that's a "philosophy" in and of itself. Sisko, the hardcore Starfleet Officer at that time, advocated the more agnostic view in that ep. Just as well, for an organization proclaiming tolerance towards other beliefs.

 

[sonak]

^I see your point, on that. Still, I would actually venture to argue that Starfleet's orientation would be more along the lines of "hardcore agnosticism". By that, I mean healthy skepticism towards faiths...but no flat-out dismissal or condemnation, no angry hostility a la Richard Dawkins.

After all, Atheism is, in effect, an autimatic presumption that There Is No Higher Power. And as Kira noted to Keiko...that's a "philosophy" in and of itself. Sisko, the hardcore Starfleet Officer at that time, advocated the more agnostic view in that ep. Just as well, for an organization proclaiming tolerance towards other beliefs.

soft atheism makes no such claim.

 

[Rush Limborg]

^Well, atheism literally means "no god" ("A" = no). So...I don't see how "soft atheism" works...unless some agnostics simply got tired of calling themselves "agnostics"....

 

[sonak]

^Well, atheism literally means "no god" ("A" = no). So...I don't see how "soft atheism" works...unless some agnostics simply got tired of calling themselves "agnostics"....

well it means they don't believe or think there's a God, but they don't definitively assert that "there is no God."


they're not agnostic, because they're taking a position.