Aren't kids being taught manners anymore?
- Thread starter Aldo
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Sounds like a very oppressive environment to grow up in. I guess we all have our sensitive areas and old scars. I feel the same way about several things.
I'll only add that people will only treat you as though you are there to serve if you let them. In that, I don't mean saying no entirely. I mean convincingly exuding the idea you do the act for its own sake, whether the other party is deserving/appreciative or not.
I think most people can read general mood and thoughts, even if they don't realise they are doing so, and it can effect how they treat strangers before they've even spoken. It seems to be body language and other primitive instinctual stuff - think of the big guy walking down the side-walk, everyone else gives way, not he, and it's all done on a subconscious level.
When another sensitive person unconsciously reads that you feel oppressed, or under pressure, they may instinctually take charge, so to speak, because you have given off discomfort signals. I think in some ways, we still operate in a pack mentality when in groups. We sort of expect to have certain individuals having the upper hand. And it all seems to be to do with self-esteem, not actually who is most worthy.
I think it goes a certain way towards explaining why certain individuals keep encountering the same problems in different situations and with different people. It's like a self-fulfilling prophesy. The information is fed to the other party in some way, and so it plays out once again. An internal change might then effect an external change.
I am not saying any of this is true of you, I'm just speculating on the topic in general as I founds some of your points really interesting.
What the fuck? "Condescending"?
I was making a serious point. Robert's exact words were:
That's hyperbole at best, and horseshit at worst. As I said: no adult ever treated me that way. And now that I am an adult, I've never met or even heard of anyone who thinks that way.
Far from expecting children to be "silent, obedient slaves to every other adult they meet," compared to just about any other society in history, our society affords children and young people an extraordinary amount of freedom, while devoting enormous resources to their care and upbringing. You only have to talk to your grandparents to find out just how different things were just a couple of generations ago.
And in my considered opinion, anyone who thinks it's appropriate to talk about "slavery" in the context of a discussion about a social obligation to hold doors for people, and to give up your seat on the bus, simply doesn't know what he's talking about.
There are real child slaves in this world, Robert. Children who are sold like animals, treated like dirt, and exploited ruthlessly by adults, for labour and in some cases, for sex. Do you seriously think that grown-ups grousing about "kids these days" compares to that? Do you honestly think that any of the social obligations imposed on the average North-American young person come even close to that?
How dare you use a word like "slave" in this context! And then you have the effrontery to call me "condescending," and accuse me of missing the point, when I disagree with you?
Far from being "condescending," I think I was being generous. Your express opinion was so wildly exaggerated that I felt it could only have one of two sources. Either you had a very unhappy (and unusual) childhood--in which case, as I indicated, I can understand feeling the way you do. If that's the case, then I truly am sorry, and I can understand how it would shape your attitude on this subject. But my point stands.
Either that--or you were just trolling. If you'd rather I came to this conclusion instead, let me know.
Most expectations, as someone once said, are premeditated resentments.
In the school where I teach, we were told a few years ago, when we adopted the Positive Behavior Support (PBS) program that we could no longer assume that our middle schoolers would come to use understanding the proper behaviors in school. Therefore, we needed to start the year by teaching those expectations, then re-teaching, and then, if necessary (and it is 
), then proceeding to the disciplinary process. This to me answers the thread question of "Are kids being taught manners," especially since we are talking 10-11 year olds, who have been through kindergarten through 5th grade before getting to middle school.
As for my own kids, my wife and I do try to instill manners in them. We've often been told by others (teachers, other parents, etc.) how polite and caring they are, so I think we're doing our job well. I know I often remind them to say "thank you," sometimes as an automatic response, even though they've already said it!
I do think the overall issue that developed throughout the thread comes down to each side needing to change a little. It's probably wrong to just assume that a younger kid should be the one standing. That said, yes, mathematically speaking, more young kids are in better physical condition than the elderly and certainly moreso than a pregnant woman. It's probably better if both sides approached it with a little more tact, with the younger person, assuming they are physically able to, giving up their seat, and the older person asking nicely if it is not done.
I know I had a weekend recently where I saw a lot of that. A few Fridays ago, my parents came into town and we met them at a restaurant that was still pretty busy. I had my four kids with me, my wife met us there, and of course, my parents were there. We had a large party and had to wait in the waiting area by the door. Sitting near the door, I got up as people came towards it (more were leaving than coming in) and just about everyone said "Thank you."
Then, I was with my mother and two boys in the Starbucks inside our local Target, when my 3 year old got a hold of a shopping cart and bumped it into a man's cart. I immediately apologized and he reassured me, it was not necessary. I felt it was, since my child was in the wrong, but it was nice to see someone on the other side being kind as well. The cart didn't bump him, physically, but he did have a right to be upset. Too often though, people take that right to mean they can berate the other party.
My basic belief is that if we are worried about teaching kids about manners, we need to educate them in action, as well as in word. I am very self-conscious, for example, when I order food, because I've caught myself reminding my children to say, "Please," somewhere in their order, and then realize, I did not say it myself. Kids quickly get the "Do as I say, not as I do message," and while they may still do it when you are around, if they do not see the behavior modeled, they will only do it because they know you want them to, they will not do it because they understand it to be the socially acceptable thing to do. I wonder how many of the kids who don't move saw their parents sit there, instead of giving up their own seat?
), then proceeding to the disciplinary process. This to me answers the thread question of "Are kids being taught manners," especially since we are talking 10-11 year olds, who have been through kindergarten through 5th grade before getting to middle school.As for my own kids, my wife and I do try to instill manners in them. We've often been told by others (teachers, other parents, etc.) how polite and caring they are, so I think we're doing our job well. I know I often remind them to say "thank you," sometimes as an automatic response, even though they've already said it!
I do think the overall issue that developed throughout the thread comes down to each side needing to change a little. It's probably wrong to just assume that a younger kid should be the one standing. That said, yes, mathematically speaking, more young kids are in better physical condition than the elderly and certainly moreso than a pregnant woman. It's probably better if both sides approached it with a little more tact, with the younger person, assuming they are physically able to, giving up their seat, and the older person asking nicely if it is not done.
I know I had a weekend recently where I saw a lot of that. A few Fridays ago, my parents came into town and we met them at a restaurant that was still pretty busy. I had my four kids with me, my wife met us there, and of course, my parents were there. We had a large party and had to wait in the waiting area by the door. Sitting near the door, I got up as people came towards it (more were leaving than coming in) and just about everyone said "Thank you."
Then, I was with my mother and two boys in the Starbucks inside our local Target, when my 3 year old got a hold of a shopping cart and bumped it into a man's cart. I immediately apologized and he reassured me, it was not necessary. I felt it was, since my child was in the wrong, but it was nice to see someone on the other side being kind as well. The cart didn't bump him, physically, but he did have a right to be upset. Too often though, people take that right to mean they can berate the other party.
My basic belief is that if we are worried about teaching kids about manners, we need to educate them in action, as well as in word. I am very self-conscious, for example, when I order food, because I've caught myself reminding my children to say, "Please," somewhere in their order, and then realize, I did not say it myself. Kids quickly get the "Do as I say, not as I do message," and while they may still do it when you are around, if they do not see the behavior modeled, they will only do it because they know you want them to, they will not do it because they understand it to be the socially acceptable thing to do. I wonder how many of the kids who don't move saw their parents sit there, instead of giving up their own seat?
Well, evidently Aldo expected the kid he saw to drop everything and rush to the old man's aid. Since the kid didn't do this, Aldo took it as a sign that kids today aren't taught any manners, which is always a prelude to more generalized bitching about how the youth are going to be the downfall of society, blah blah blah.
It gets old.Of course, people from a few generations ago talk about how they had to go out and cut their own switches when they were bad, and if all they got was a mild beating for misbehavior, they were lucky. In the same breath, they wish for a return to the "good old days" when it was okay to thrash your children.
I view expectations such as Aldo's in a similar light: romanticized relics of some ideal past. Kids deferred to adults because they were scared shitless of doing otherwise.
I think it's fine when kids are polite and do things like hold doors and help old ladies cross the street, but when they don't do that, I don't consider it an opportunity to pass judgment and assume they were raised poorly, and just one bad day away from becoming rapists and carjackers, as these "decline of society"-type threads inevitably imply.
Yes, I'm the first person ever to use hyperbole in any situation.
I was referring to an attitude of particular expectations, not de facto slavery--and you're smart enough to know that, you're just picking a fight because you have some bizarre grudge against me. That's my "considered" opinion of your posts here.Or perhaps you're just bored. I come here for entertainment, too.
Save the self-righteous hand-wringing. It doesn't impress me.
Yep, "condescending" is the right word here.
I actually had something like this happen to me several months ago. I was on the subway, and an elderly lady got on, stood in front of where I was sitting for a few seconds, then moved away, muttering passive-aggressively about how I should have gotten up for her.
As it happens, I had just come from the hospital, where I'd had X-rays done on my broken left big toe. Standing was not an option for me.
You may look at someone and think that they're completely able-bodied, but you don't know how they feel. They could be in pain, they could be feeling queasy, they could have just spent the last several hours on their feet.
And as it happened, a week or so later I actually had a young lady give me her seat, after she watched me limping onto the subway car. During the month or so that my toe was healing, that only happened the one time. I think people are just generally unobservant because they're caught up in their own thoughts (I know I'm guilty of that a lot of the time).
Actually I think this is true in one context - the boozer, seriously, don't bring your fucking kids into the pub on a Saturday afternoon when the rest of us are trying to study the form, kill our livers and keep our bookie in the style that he become accustom to.
No, we will not turn over the ponies* so he can watch cartoons, no he can't draw on my copy of the racing post.
* no not those ponies.
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People really do that?
Adults thinking their kids should be entitled are also full of shit.
I agree with the sentiment that bitching about the lack of manners, respect, blah, blah, blah in today's youth is tedious. Kids are people, some are polite, some are not, just like adults. It has always been that way and always will be so (I'm sure someone has already brought up the famed ancient quotation by...was it Socrates?...about how the youth of the day were so inferior to their elders). I've met a lot more rude adults than I have rude children, to be frank.
What's more, for every little shit out there I have met a wonderful, bright, and kind youth. When I see a young person fail to give up his seat to an elderly person, I think about the time last year after one of the winter's major blizzards, when a frail old woman with a walker was trying to cross the road: all the snow that had been swept from the roadway was piled up at the sidewalks, meaning that at most corners one had to climb and pick one's way over mounds of snow sometimes 3 or 4 feet high. This little old lady was stuck in the road, trying to figure out how to get herself and her walker over the snow, I offered to help, struggling myself not to slip over. Two boys, about 14 or 15, saw us struggling and ran over to take the lady's bags and walker and practically carry her over the snow and ice. If that wasn't enough, they then offered to walk her the rest of the way to her destination. Several adults had walked right past her before the boys and I stopped to help.
And every time I meet little asshole thugs I think about Maleek, a little boy in a third grade class I taught about 5 years ago. Maleek was from the ghetto--the real ghetto, Bed-Stuy... his dad was in jail, his mom in and out of various institutions, and at 8 he got himself up everyday and took the subway alone to school, and was kind, mature, and well-mannered. On parent teacher conference day, neither of his parents showed up. Instead, his 15 year old brother and 17 year old sister came to discuss his grades and progress.
When I get the urge to bitch I remember Maleek and his brother and sister -- some of the most awesome people I've ever met, and children of this supposedly unmotivated, disrespectful, and ill-mannered generation. They are neither the rule nor the exception, rather evidence that there are all types. Always have been and always will be.
^ Quite well said and exactly right. Thanks, tsq.
^Yeah. I don't get most of those posts. I see kids holding doors open at the school all the time, and thank me for signing their agendas (planners), after they write their homework in it. I remember being told the same about people my age, and those in their 40s, when I was growing up.
Wow, what an amazing story. Good for that little guy. I hope he keeps it up.
ed629
Rear Admiral
I totally agree with that, they're kids and are oblivious to a lot of things. I've seen kids be very helpful to other people, and at the same be completely oblivious to something else. I can remember growing up as a kid and having adults (old people usually) act as if we owed them something, or bitch about stupid shit. Things like bitching at us to get off the sidewalk so they could walk by as we were drawing or playing on the sidewalk.
Congratulations, you're old and didn't die yet.
Most of the problems I believe come from the parents that feel any discipline will emotionally and mentally hurt their kids. Oh little Jeffy did this, well I can't punish him because he'll get his feelings hurt. Or shit like a parent going psycho because how dare a teacher give their precious child the failing grade they deserved.
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In this thread there's been mention of how society, other people, and how we expect others to act in public. Much of it is instilled in us when we are children and growing up. And for some, being polite and considerate of others is natural There's a 10 year old girl that lives a few houses from me, her father is an ass in every sense of the word, her mother is polite but tends to be curtailed by her husband. The girl is a sweet, friendly, and helpful kid. One of my dogs got out one day (I only had him for 2-3 days at this point and he tended to hide under the bed in the guest room, and I didn't realize it. When I did, I went outside to look for him. She was in her front with my dog, she had a bowl of water, some food and a few toys of hers that she was playing with him with. She saw me coming out and asked if he was mine, when I said he was she told she found him and kept him in the front yard in case someone was looking for him. So that tells me that some people just have it within them to be polite caring people.
As for helping others when we want to or feel like it instead of doing because society expects to, is a valid argument. We can't go around helping everyone all the time, or helping someone and dropping what we are doing to rush to another's aid isn't something we should feel like we have to. The kids was drying his hands, why did he have rush over to help? He may of very well intended to do so, but wanted to dry his hands first. As for not giving up a 'seat' or similar and getting glares from other, that's their problem. Just because you look ok doesn't mean you are. Someone who doesn't give up their seat and is young could have other health issues where they can't stand for long periods of time. The people who feel entitled to something, how often do they give up their 'seat'. Some people also feel uncomfortable giving up their 'seat' or helping out in other ways. They may have had a bad experience or had something backfire on them and now feel awkward of being the one that always helps.
And if someone asks for help, why do we have to automatically help them? We may not be able to, want to, or it may be something that we feel extremely uncomfortable doing. A while back I made a post about someone who was in a motorized wheelchair asking me to help him go, not take him, or hold the door open, but actually help him go in the restroom. And pretty much was bashed because I didn't, and at the time acted like I didn't understand what he wanted. Apparently that made me as ass, it turned he needed to take a shit, and there was no way in hell I would do that for a complete stranger. The general was I should have helped him not only because he asked me, but because I was supposed to help him because he was in a wheelchair. If it was someone who was only in wheelchair because of a broken leg or similar does that mean I should help them as well? It seems like it's so much easier to tell others, or form opinions of how others should act before most people will actually do the same thing. As for those that said I should of helped, and that they would of, I very much doubt that if faced with the same thing, they would of. It's much easier to act holier than others than to actually do so.
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ed629
Rear Admiral
I agree with the sentiment that bitching about the lack of manners, respect, blah, blah, blah in today's youth is tedious. Kids are people, some are polite, some are not, just like adults. It has always been that way and always will be so (I'm sure someone has already brought up the famed ancient quotation by...was it Socrates?...about how the youth of the day were so inferior to their elders). I've met a lot more rude adults than I have rude children, to be frank.
What's more, for every little shit out there I have met a wonderful, bright, and kind youth. When I see a young person fail to give up his seat to an elderly person, I think about the time last year after one of the winter's major blizzards, when a frail old woman with a walker was trying to cross the road: all the snow that had been swept from the roadway was piled up at the sidewalks, meaning that at most corners one had to climb and pick one's way over mounds of snow sometimes 3 or 4 feet high. This little old lady was stuck in the road, trying to figure out how to get herself and her walker over the snow, I offered to help, struggling myself not to slip over. Two boys, about 14 or 15, saw us struggling and ran over to take the lady's bags and walker and practically carry her over the snow and ice. If that wasn't enough, they then offered to walk her the rest of the way to her destination. Several adults had walked right past her before the boys and I stopped to help.
And every time I meet little asshole thugs I think about Maleek, a little boy in a third grade class I taught about 5 years ago. Maleek was from the ghetto--the real ghetto, Bed-Stuy... his dad was in jail, his mom in and out of various institutions, and at 8 he got himself up everyday and took the subway alone to school, and was kind, mature, and well-mannered. On parent teacher conference day, neither of his parents showed up. Instead, his 15 year old brother and 17 year old sister came to discuss his grades and progress.
When I get the urge to bitch I remember Maleek and his brother and sister -- some of the most awesome people I've ever met, and children of this supposedly unmotivated, disrespectful, and ill-mannered generation. They are neither the rule nor the exception, rather evidence that there are all types. Always have been and always will be.
The problem is, most people are more than happy to remember that 'bad' kids, and ignore the good ones. Whenever I've meet little shits, 90% of the time their parents are just as bad or worse than they are. And I've seen several occasions similar to the snow walker lady, the adults pass on by and the teens or kids are the ones to stop and help.
No, they're obviously not, because one incident is all one needs to draw an overarching conclusion.
One 13 year old kid didn't help an old man, ergo, no kids are being taught manners anymore. The kid probably didn't even realize the man was there and having trouble.
I'm reminded of a commercial a few years ago. A pregnant woman gets on a bus and the kid doesn't get up for her. A man sitting behind the kid gets upset at him because he won't get up and complains about the kid not having any common courtesy to which the kid replied "Sorry gramps, I don't have any." And the man was really upset at the kid even though he was not getting up for her, and the woman said it's okay.
One thing I don't get about this situation is why get upset at the kid? Why is it assumed that the kid must help, and why can't the adult go over there and help him? If you're so concerned about it, why not do it yourself?
One thing I don't get about this situation is why get upset at the kid? Why is it assumed that the kid must help, and why can't the adult go over there and help him? If you're so concerned about it, why not do it yourself?
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