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Aren't kids being taught manners anymore?

Aldo

Admiral
Admiral
So I was at the mall on my way home from work. Going to the restroom (per usual, lol) when I happened to be walking behind an old man using a walker. He was having trouble getting around. So I stop because something catches my eye.

Anyways, I head back towards the bathroom and see the old man having difficulty getting through the door with his walker. I am unable to help at the moment because he is already halfway through and I would just get in the way. As I look into the bathroom I see this kid (maybe 12, 13) drying his hands on a paper towel all the while watching this man struggle with the door.

It bugs me that the kid didn't make any effort to help. As soon as the man was halfway through the door I leaned in and held it open for him, but the kid on the inside could have done more by holding the door open for him.
 
I think it's more likely that kids these days are just oblivious to pretty much anything. If someone had asked the kid to help, he probably would have, but it would not occur to him to offer on his own.
 
I think it's more likely that kids these days are just oblivious to pretty much anything. If someone had asked the kid to help, he probably would have, but it would not occur to him to offer on his own.

Very true. And not just for kids either, I find myself becoming more like that as time goes on. Instead of automatically helping someone, I feel uncomfortable about doing so because that person might not want help. I am reminded of stories about people with disabilities becoming upset when someone assumed they couldn't do something on their own, so I feel uneasy about just jumping in with assistance where it may not be desired. If someone asked me, I would certainly help. Also I think it has to do with where you live/grew up. In some areas people chat with strangers and have no problem with physical contact with people they just met, but in other places (bigger cities usually) you learn to stick to yourself, mind your own business, and let those around you be unless something requires drastic action.
 
Sometimes I think the real problem is adults feeling entitled and believing children should be silent, obedient slaves to every other adult they meet.
 
Sometimes I think the real problem is adults feeling entitled and believing children should be silent, obedient slaves to every other adult they meet.

Sadly, I think you're on to something there. As an adolescent, I always used to give up my seat on the bus to elderly passengers if there were none available. The thing is, eventually I started thinking: "why is is always me who gets up? Surely someone else might do it for a change?" Next time I was in that situation, instead of immediately standing and offering my seat as I would usually do, I did nothing. I'm being entirely serious here; almost every seated adult on the bus glanced at me, the teenager, to see if I would rise. Only when I didn't, did one of them offer their seat. It was quite a shock, I can tell you. Here's me thinking we give up seats to the elderly because they're frailer and need to rest, but it turns out it's actually a strange quasi-gerontocracy in which the younger you are, the less deserving you are of a seat. So I stopped offering seats for a few years. When I hit 20, I started doing it again. Perhaps that seems strange and petty of me, but I find I don't apologise for it.

I would have helped the man in the OP out the door, of course, but that's because of my own social instincts. If I believed people were assuming I somehow had to, I'd display at least some reluctance.

If people want the young to be more socially conscious and helpful, they need to lead by example and send the message that it strengthens us all to assist and aid each other, not that doing so is a duty the old would rather dump on the young. That just breeds resentment and apathy in children and adolescents. To be honest, I find adolescents in general rather horrible, but it doesn't surprise me they're like that - it's the result of elders who lead through domination rather than example.
 
Sometimes I think the real problem is adults feeling entitled and believing children should be silent, obedient slaves to every other adult they meet.

Sadly, I think you're on to something there. As an adolescent, I always used to give up my seat on the bus to elderly passengers if there were none available. The thing is, eventually I started thinking: "why is is always me who gets up? Surely someone else might do it for a change?" Next time I was in that situation, instead of immediately standing and offering my seat as I would usually do, I did nothing. I'm being entirely serious here; almost every seated adult on the bus glanced at me, the teenager, to see if I would rise. Only when I didn't, did one of them offer their seat. It was quite a shock, I can tell you. Here's me thinking we give up seats to the elderly because they're frailer and need to rest, but it turns out it's actually a strange quasi-gerontocracy in which the younger you are, the less deserving you are of a seat. So I stopped offering seats for a few years. When I hit 20, I started doing it again. Perhaps that seems strange and petty of me, but I find I don't apologise for it.

I would have helped the man in the OP out the door, of course, but that's because of my own social instincts. If I believed people were assuming I somehow had to, I'd display at least some reluctance.

If people want the young to be more socially conscious and helpful, they need to lead by example and send the message that it strengthens us all to assist and aid each other, not that doing so is a duty the old would rather dump on the young. That just breeds resentment and apathy in children and adolescents. To be honest, I find adolescents in general rather horrible, but it doesn't surprise me they're like that - it's the result of elders who lead through domination rather than example.

You make an excellent point, and your example is an interesting one. I've seen this behavior before as well. At family gatherings, the youngest was expected to give up a seat for any older family member. I did so out of respect anyway, but it's just curious behavior. I mean, I imagine the logic is that I'm younger, have more energy, my back and legs are stronger, so I can stand. Still, never liked the assumption.
 
Sometimes I think the real problem is adults feeling entitled and believing children should be silent, obedient slaves to every other adult they meet.

Sadly, I think you're on to something there. As an adolescent, I always used to give up my seat on the bus to elderly passengers if there were none available. The thing is, eventually I started thinking: "why is is always me who gets up? Surely someone else might do it for a change?" Next time I was in that situation, instead of immediately standing and offering my seat as I would usually do, I did nothing. I'm being entirely serious here; almost every seated adult on the bus glanced at me, the teenager, to see if I would rise. Only when I didn't, did one of them offer their seat. It was quite a shock, I can tell you. Here's me thinking we give up seats to the elderly because they're frailer and need to rest, but it turns out it's actually a strange quasi-gerontocracy in which the younger you are, the less deserving you are of a seat. So I stopped offering seats for a few years. When I hit 20, I started doing it again. Perhaps that seems strange and petty of me, but I find I don't apologise for it.

I would have helped the man in the OP out the door, of course, but that's because of my own social instincts. If I believed people were assuming I somehow had to, I'd display at least some reluctance.

If people want the young to be more socially conscious and helpful, they need to lead by example and send the message that it strengthens us all to assist and aid each other, not that doing so is a duty the old would rather dump on the young. That just breeds resentment and apathy in children and adolescents. To be honest, I find adolescents in general rather horrible, but it doesn't surprise me they're like that - it's the result of elders who lead through domination rather than example.

You make an excellent point, and your example is an interesting one. I've seen this behavior before as well. At family gatherings, the youngest was expected to give up a seat for any older family member. I did so out of respect anyway, but it's just curious behavior. I mean, I imagine the logic is that I'm younger, have more energy, my back and legs are stronger, so I can stand. Still, never liked the assumption.

No, the logic is, "You're young, you haven't earned shit in this world, so fuck you and get your ass up for somebody more important."
 
just because you're old doesnt entitle you to any sort of respect. i find the elderly are far ruder than young people.
 
I've noticed that kids seem to be smarter these days than past generations but they are also more apathetic to just about anything. Not sure why this is the case. My stepdaughter is this way also..I try to explain to her why something might be interesting or important and she shrugs her shoulders in indifference.

Incidentally I help people all the time. Old, young whatever. Maybe it's because I don't live in the city.

RAMA
 
Nasat had a very good point about the seats. I used to give up my seat on the bus all the time. Now I don't. Two reasons. One, me knee is messed up. Two, I've done it enough times to last me a lifetime. Somebody has the ball on this one.
 
Since a lot of grandparents don't live with the family anymore, and that familiarity and affection doesn't exist to such a degree, a lot of kids probably wonder "what the heck is that?" or "why isn't it in a nursing home" when they see an elderly person. Forget feeling compassion or the desire to help. The sad and isolating results of an ongoing progression towards individualism.
 
I've noticed that kids seem to be smarter these days than past generations but they are also more apathetic to just about anything. Not sure why this is the case

I certainly don't claim any authority, but I've often wondered if it's because the adult world is so ideological, and it makes the young reluctant to embrace it. How often do we see young children speak plainly, say things how they are, because they don't yet grasp the complexities of social interaction? "Out of the mouths of babes"; that blunt, honest observation. It so often strikes home, rings true. But the adult world is run on ideology, by adherence to party lines, myriad social games that aren't about truth at all (or even honest opinion) but about power and tribalism. To some extent, I'm sure, the development away from blunt "tell-it-how-you-see-it" is a positive - a developing child learns that blurting out how you think is not always a good idea and that things are more complex than the selfish child-mind understands. But I personally think our societies have removed themselves from the childish desire for clarity and truth to dangerous extremes.

I think adolescents often see, at least on some level, that the worldviews adults are feeding them (particularly the mass-distributed school curriculum models) are often removed from reality, though they lack the experience or wisdom to articulate their misgivings or truly understand their own objections. So I think they just switch off, and sadly that means they switch off to everything. How many young teenagers take the time to filter the wheat from the chaff and how many simply say "f**k it" and turn their back on everything they're taught, even the things they should be listening to? Does a 14 year old have that sort of patience and sophistication? Can they be expected to when the very adults who should be teaching them that sophistry are too often concerned with defending their ideological assumptions and saying "no" to independent thinking? Worst of all is the plight of those adults trapped in between, who truly seek to impart wisdom and raise the young cooperatively into decent adults, but suffer from the same generalized scorn the young throw up. The kids won't listen; they should, but I totally see why they don't.

The kid knows the mind games of the adult are suspect, and won't play along, but in his or her inexperience what can he or she conjure up to replace it? Nothing. So they turn away from any sort of social responsibility and camp out in an eternal selfishness-of-youth. During my schooling, I noticed that at every level the intelligent youngsters were at least as likely to goof off or resist the system than the less intelligent - perhaps more so. Most of them were pretty okay young people under it all, but nonetheless they were often rude, thoughtless and selfish. Again, it was very unfortunate for those teachers who truly deserved the title and who the kids could have benefited from listening closely too. The kids were wrong to disregard the wisdom of these adults - but I don't see how you could expect them to heed it when all too often these teachers were the exception to the rule.

I think you're right, RAMA - I think many of today's young people are "smart", as in very wary of ideology and blind acceptance - that's good. But they're often simultaneously apathetic and selfish, dangerously so - uninterested in the adult world in general. They won't repeat their parents' mistakes but nor will they exhibit their parents' civility.
 
I feel uncomfortable about doing so because that person might not want help. I am reminded of stories about people with disabilities becoming upset when someone assumed they couldn't do something on their own, so I feel uneasy about just jumping in with assistance where it may not be desired.
If someone is struggling in a situation like that, I ask if they need help. I've never had anyone become defensive or agitated at the offer. Some of them decline -- politely -- some accept my offer of help.
 
Sadly, I think you're on to something there. As an adolescent, I always used to give up my seat on the bus to elderly passengers if there were none available. The thing is, eventually I started thinking: "why is is always me who gets up? Surely someone else might do it for a change?" Next time I was in that situation, instead of immediately standing and offering my seat as I would usually do, I did nothing. I'm being entirely serious here; almost every seated adult on the bus glanced at me, the teenager, to see if I would rise. Only when I didn't, did one of them offer their seat. It was quite a shock, I can tell you. Here's me thinking we give up seats to the elderly because they're frailer and need to rest, but it turns out it's actually a strange quasi-gerontocracy in which the younger you are, the less deserving you are of a seat. So I stopped offering seats for a few years. When I hit 20, I started doing it again. Perhaps that seems strange and petty of me, but I find I don't apologise for it.

I'm afraid I do think that is quite petty.

It is not that you "deserve a seat less"; it is indeed that the most able-bodied person is assumed to be the teenager/young adult. Believe it or not, even at my relatively young age (though older than a teenager), I unfortunately already have the bad back of a middle-aged woman--which I did not have as a teenager. So frankly, I would rather the teenager stand first, because even though you may think I still look young, and I am young in years, I am very likely aching. :( If I am the youngest, though, I will still stand, because while I may have some pain, I at least have strength and I know that an elderly person probably has pain like mine and may also lack stamina.

Plus, I think you got looks because people are used to teens being sullen, resentful, and with a massive entitlement complex. You might not have fit those criteria, but that behavior only played into the stereotype.

Now, if an older person walked up to you and said, "Get up," then I would've stayed seated in your place. But failing to be polite in the kind of case you describe really strikes me as something like giving the middle finger.
 
^ First, a reasonable explanation, and I acknowledge its logic (if not necessarily the logic of the assumptions inherent in it). If someone had respectably suggested this to me at any point prior to or soon after the incident in question, it might have ended my displeasure (even if I disagreed). However, even if that was the reason for people's expectations (which I doubt), no-one ever bothered to explain it. If people are going to ask things of others they should make sure it is known why - the fact that no-one ever did means that even if your reasoning was shared by the local people, it still reinforces my belief that an attitude of general dismissal or disrespect towards the young was in evidence. If I decide someone has to do something I don't have to, but don't offer my reasoning, I can't complain when the other takes this poorly.

Also, I'm afraid your explanation was certainly not how the others' attitude came across to me. It's entirely possible I was mistaken, but I consider myself rather good at reading people and I'm not convinced that anything like a supposed spectrum of stamina levels was responsible for their unspoken expectation that they should make an effort only if I didn't (and it was this perceived laziness and selfishness that annoyed me - I felt like others were once again taking advantage of my politeness), I find it easier to believe, based on my experiences, that it was more an attitude that they were more entitled than I and I had to "suck it up" ("the young have it so lucky! They don't know how hard life is!" was a common theme floating in the background throughout my youth, and with it the unspoken but very much evident attitude that adults had earned some sort of right to look down on the young, even feel contempt for them, simply because the young hadn't yet experienced as many bruises from the simple process of living).

But failing to be polite in the kind of case you describe really strikes me as something like giving the middle finger.

Well, to my mind there's nothing impolite about offering implicit, unspoken resistance to implicit, unspoken expectations from others. That's not aggressing or imposing on anyone. If anything, it's the other people doing the imposing. And sometimes you need to communicate the fact that you've decided not to smile and bow and comply with what seems to you unreasonable activity (rightly or wrongly), but, for whatever reason, sensible or petty, you're going to continue your business without doing what others have decided you should.

Is that "something like giving the middle finger"? Well, it's certainly on the spectrum (resistance to the impositions of others), but it lacks the active aggression of that particular "answer". I don't see it as a fair comparison.

As for being petty: Was it petty of me? - quite probably, in that I knowingly turned my back on my own sense of personal propriety (after all, until then I'd always happily and swiftly given away my seat out of a personal sense of compassion and social responsibility). And I did that out of distaste at what I peceived as others' laziness and sense of entitlement. In other words, moral indignation on my part, however passionless. But if there's a point to be taken from this, I'd suggest it's that my behaviour was actually no different from that of everyone else on the bus, which both humbles me (and there's nothing unusual about realizing mild hypocrisy at a later date) and takes any sting out of arguments against me. Both I and the other people on the bus were engaged in the same way of thinking, which is that other people's actions or sense of propriety was somehow our concern - indeed, more important than our own actions or sense of propriety. If anyone has a problem with my teenage self's response, then I'd say that actually reinforces one of the points I'm getting at - that concerning yourself with what other people "should" do is an imposition and, in honesty, rather arrogant. In the case I brought up, if I had just ignored my sense of what I thought everyone else should do and continued in what I believed to be my good behaviour (giving up seats like I always had), it would no doubt have been more mature and, overall, a better choice. Then again, if even one of those adults had engaged in what they thought was their best behaviour on first response, rather than deciding they should police other people and decide others should do what they wanted them to do first, then there wouldn't have been a problem, because they would have offered the seat regardless of what I was doing (if they were close to the front and the new arrival, that is). And if they'd done that from the start I would never have decided there was a problem (why is it always me who jumps up first regardless of my place on the bus?).

The way I see it, arguments that my behaviour was poor are entirely valid...but they also demonstrate, as far as I'm concerned, that it was poor insofar as it mimicked the behaviour of everyone around me. Which leads me back to the point that if people lead by example rather than command, there's a lot less resentment and a lot more willingness on the part of the immature to follow that lead. Either that or you have to wait for the young to work out "it only matters that I do what I think is right, even if noone wants me too - and (relevant to my case) even if everyone wants me to. And expecting the young to have that type of self-respect seems futile to me - there's a reason why peer pressure is so strong among adolescents (and so also the attempt to resist peer pressure)
 
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I think it is giving the middle finger if there is no reason but one's own petulance, and as far as I am concerned, I see no legitimate reason for what you did. And you can't put that off on other people, either. They do not make you act in any particular way. You chose that and it was entirely your responsibility. You may not have made an obscene gesture or shouted an obscenity, but you intentionally acted rude out of pique. If people saw that in you, that wasn't ageism. That was disappointment with your inconsiderate behavior--that's not an attitude that people like, and rightly so: would they want to be the ones dismissed and disrespected next?

Resisting peer pressure, if you are being called on to do something evil, is a very noble thing. But I do not consider it noble in the slightest to resist things when there is no purpose for resistance. It is one thing for Rosa Parks to refuse to give up her seat on the bus. White people had no right to make her move because she was black. That is wrong; that is an injustice that should indeed be fought tooth and nail. As I have seen on previous occasions, you seem to pick the wrong targets for your indignation. If you want to be angry at injustice in this world, and take a stand, there are plenty of real, serious causes that need help from dedicated and passionate individuals, and who knows? Maybe that passion could even get you a job with such an organization. But first I think you need to work on distinguishing between what you simply find to be an inconvenience to you, and what is a true injustice. You weren't being Rosa Parks in this case; I'm sorry, but your act just does not compare. I think you may want to read about her before you keep digging your heels in on this.

Giving up your seat to someone who may experience greater discomfort than you if they have to stand, or may be less able to keep their balance--and when you were likely the one who would experience the least discomfort from doing so--is a way of showing care for that person's situation in life. It is about making someone feel a little bit better. Once you reach that age--once you're aching and you've had a long day and all you want is to sit down and try to get your tired muscles to relax--I think you'll regret your selfish behavior. I don't think you are in any position to accuse others of laziness and entitlement given the actions you described yourself taking.

I am glad to know you've at least grown out of acting out in that way, but it disappoints me to see that you are unable to acknowledge why it was wrong.

It's not about kowtowing and again, if someone approached you and said, "Move!" then I would have a problem with their behavior. I know I would never dare do that that to someone, even when I am hurting. I think I would just grit my teeth and put up with the pain unless I truly could not stand. If it were that bad, I would ask if maybe someone could scoot over and make room for an extra person. I would not ask them to get up, but maybe someone would take a hint and do that.

Anyway...I am done arguing this. All I can say is that was a very disappointing attitude to read about, to say the least.
 
It's not a kid thing. A lot of people either don't notice or don't care. I've given my seat up to an elderly person on public transportation loads of times, usually noticing that no one else seems so inclined. But there are also plenty of times that people may have needed assistance that I failed to notice.

Also, elderly people generally make me uncomfortable.
 
I never sit down on the bus becaue I know someone 10 years older than me is going to be glaring at me for it. Yes, the "Fuck you, you havent earned shit in this world" attitude is beyond prevalent, usually by people in the project neighborhoods I have to ride the bus through.

But in terms of the door thing, I know I am super shy about approaching people, even when they look like they need help. I've been told off a few times, but I try not to let that affect future attempts. It's a different world than it used to be, I guess.
 
It's entirely possible that the kid was either too shy to help, or didn't realise that the old man needed help.
 
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