Aren't kids being taught manners anymore?

[Deranged Nasat]

Anyway...I am done arguing this. All I can say is that was a very disappointing attitude to read about, to say the least.

You know what? Lots of us find the attitudes, beliefs and behaviours of others disappointing, offensive or unacceptable. Most of us, however, try to understand that each person is making their own way through life and unless they've done something actively heinous we don't let it bother us too much. As I say, learning this was something I hadn't yet done at the time I decided not to jump forward to help as an adolescent. But my take on things now is that there's only one person whose attitudes and behaviours you should ever be truly concerned with - your own. Naturally, I sometimes slip up and behave in a manner that's at odds with that idea, but then I'm not perfect. I'm a flawed being simply trying to find some peace in himself. And each of us works their way through things differently, which is one reason why we try not to be too harsh in judgement of one another.

Posting about how other people are ethically challenged with the attitude that your personal judgement is the moral judgement, rather than simply your way of seeing things, gets under people's skin. I know, I've done it myself at times, and regretted it. If anyone dared to be as openly judgemental of you as you are of them, you'd insist it was an unjustified attack. People don't mind disagreement, and they don't mind people having personal objections to their worldviews or behaviours, but when people make a habit of condemning and judging and openly expressing personal distaste, it strains the community and leads to alienation. Your moral stance is not inherently more correct or rightous than any other, but the attitude that it is lurks behind pretty much any of your posts. Again, if anyone around here took the attitude with you that you take with everyone else, how quickly you'd take offense and turn your back.

I see people behaving in a way I consider poor or unjustified all the time, and I see attitudes I dislike all the time. So do most of the people reading this, I'm sure. But most people simply put that aside and don't let it get in the way, or else we'd all be extremely dysfunctional. I may not like what they think or do, and they may not like what I think or do, but we all accept that we're not the moral centre of the universe, and we don't imply that there's anything but personal opinion behind our displeasure. Which is why we might argue and bicker and offend each other, but we keep interacting and enjoying each others' company regardless. Because we're a community, and a community is a multitude of perspectives not a single "correct" one. And at least most of us are happy to openly admit our faults rather than spend all our time berating other people for theirs.

 

[Goliath]

Sometimes I think the real problem is adults feeling entitled and believing children should be silent, obedient slaves to every other adult they meet.

No, the logic is, "You're young, you haven't earned shit in this world, so fuck you and get your ass up for somebody more important."

I think you need to get some perspective on this issue, Robert. We're talking about things like a seat on the bus--not child labour.

I still give up my seat to elderly people, and I'm in my 40s. I also give up my seat to disabled people, pregnant women, and parents with young children. It's not a big deal.

And maybe your childhood was radically different from mine, but nobody ever treated me as a slave. In fact, looking back on my own childhood, what I mostly remember is my parents and society investing a great deal of time and money and effort to raise and socialize and educate me well.

If they didn't make the same investments in your future, then I'm sorry. But maybe you should be directing your anger against the people who deserve it, instead of a bunch of strangers on the bus.

 

[An Officer]

^ You must be like one of the last gentlemen on the board. Very well said!

It's just not cool to be well-mannered and gentlemanly anymore, we must all compete with one another of course, doesn't matter if you're frail, old, ill... survival of the fittest, don't you know. What is this, the Serengeti?

 

[Deranged Nasat]

I still give up my seat to elderly people, and I'm in my 40s. I also give up my seat to disabled people, pregnant women, and parents with young children. It's not a big deal.

Well, to be fair, Robert never said he didn't, simply that in his experience the attitudes from others on the subject are often unpleasant and have clearly soured him on the concept. He didn't say he thought the actual act was a big deal.

People don't like feeling that they're being taken advantage of. I mean, I too happily give up seats to the old, the disabled, mothers with children, etc, as well as often to totally random people my own age or younger (after all, it brightens people's day to have someone engage in an act of kindness). That's just what I feel like doing, and what seems right to me. No, it's not "a big deal", or any deal at all. But that's because it's my choice to do so, due to my own belief as to what I should do for others. When people start expecting that they're entitled to pressurize others, that's where some of us have problems. To some of us, it is a big deal when people act like you must do something, because that can seem highly disrespectful to the individual. I don't give up seats because others have decided I'm supposed to, but because I, personally, think its a good and kind thing to do, and I'm particularly driven to do so when the person is old, pregnant, etc. But to some people my own decisions and social instincts apparently mean nothing - and it's that total disregard for the individual, combined with the attitude that you can casually impose on others, that causes resentment when there's an apparent expectation that you must.

If I see you pass a begger without giving them money, shall I tut loudly and imply "since you look richer than I, it is your responsibility to give him/her that money. I might give some, but only if you don't"?

 

[trampledamage]

It's entirely possible that the kid was either too shy to help, or didn't realise that the old man needed help.

Or, he could have been feeling awkward because he was in the middle of washing his hands, then drying them and would have helped after that.

Situations are awkward like that.

^ You must be like one of the last gentlemen on the board. Very well said!

It's just not cool to be well-mannered and gentlemanly anymore, we must all compete with one another of course, doesn't matter if you're frail, old, ill... survival of the fittest, don't you know. What is this, the Serengeti?

You have a very negative view of the world. I can't remember, do you live in London?

I find the more crowded a place is, the less courteous people feel able to be (but that might be my opinion of cities colouring my view, I don't like big cities).

You should come to Saskatchewan - it's still common to hold the door for people here. (I quite often have to ask people to let go, because my kids like operating the automatic door buttons), I can't comment on seating because I haven't been on a bus since I got here, but I'd say it was just as prevalent.

 

[An Officer]

I see where you are coming from Deranged Nasat, and such presumptuous attitudes might make you want to just forget about the gesture entirely. However, did such poor attitudes from others happen regularly enough for you to think it worth mentioning or reacting to? I don't think it has happened to me once in my entire life. Most people are simply surprised and grateful when you offer, let alone make you feel as though you should. Are you sure you are not giving isolated incidents more weight than they actually deserve? Why not focus on the ones who beamed and thanked you profusely?

I see an entire generation of young men who seem uncomfortable with their position in society and want their gender and age to be ignored entirely. I wish it were like that, too, sometimes, but it rarely is unfortunately. We are never equal, there will always be someone nearby weaker, struggling, and needing help. If you don't feel like giving that too often, that's fine. Why give it a moments thought though if your own behaviour doesn't bother you on some level somehow... and it's not just the young men, either. We had a poster earlier admitting to feeling uncomfortable around the elderly, as though they're aliens from outer space or something.

Trampledamage, I live in London, yes... actually I witness exemplary manners in my little neck of the woods on a daily basis, things like door-holding are perfectly common here too, and my opinion was of a few but vocal Misc posters, not the world in general or my area in particular. When I go 10 mins North, it is a different matter entirely, but that's another story. Perhaps I hang around the boards too often, familiarity breeds contempt and all that (feel free to PM if you want to know what prompted my opinion... the recent topic we had about hand to hand combat, and whether you should fight dirty with a woman opponent comes to mind... I don't want to take this down that road though, PMs would be more appropriate). Maybe I just read more threads than you do, consequences of being at home under the weather and bored for an extended period I suppose.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Sometimes I think the real problem is adults feeling entitled and believing children should be silent, obedient slaves to every other adult they meet.

No, the logic is, "You're young, you haven't earned shit in this world, so fuck you and get your ass up for somebody more important."

I think you need to get some perspective on this issue, Robert. We're talking about things like a seat on the bus--not child labour.

No, we're talking about adults automatically expecting children to kowtow to them at every turn. Kids should be respectful and polite, and if they've been raised with any sense of decorum, they'll give up a seat or hold a door without being asked.

But it's the expectation by random adults that kids do this which bothers me.

I still give up my seat to elderly people, and I'm in my 40s. I also give up my seat to disabled people, pregnant women, and parents with young children. It's not a big deal.

So do I. So what? No one expects me to do it, or thinks I'm a douchebag when I don't. But evidently a kid that doesn't automatically give up his seat or hold a door is just a worthless delinquent in the making.

And maybe your childhood was radically different from mine, but nobody ever treated me as a slave. In fact, looking back on my own childhood, what I mostly remember is my parents and society investing a great deal of time and money and effort to raise and socialize and educate me well.

If they didn't make the same investments in your future, then I'm sorry. But maybe you should be directing your anger against the people who deserve it, instead of a bunch of strangers on the bus.

You know, that was really unnecessary. Go condescend to someone else. If you're intent on missing the point, that's your problem.

 

[{ Emilia }]

If they didn't make the same investments in your future, then I'm sorry. But maybe you should be directing your anger against the people who deserve it, instead of a bunch of strangers on the bus.

Wow, random ad hominem attacks for the win, huh?

Having a bad day? Condescending much?

The rest of your post kinda made sense but way to disqualify everything you said.

 

[Vulagr]

Sometimes I think the real problem is adults feeling entitled and believing children should be silent, obedient slaves to every other adult they meet.

The show Dance Moms would prove you wrong.

In short, the parents on that show believe that everyone should bow down to their little angels and give their little angels anything their hearts desire.

But as for me, I'd ask the man in the door if he needed any help first, and if he said no, i wouldn't help him, but if he said yes I would help him.

I've actually done that kind of thing before.

But that's just me.

Plus, I live in a small town.

It just seems to me that people in a small town are more concerned about common courtesy than people in a city.

 

[An Officer]

Wow, random ad hominem attacks for the win, huh?

Having a bad day? Condescending much?

The rest of your post kinda made sense but way to disqualify everything you said.

Do you have your own opinion on the topic at hand at all? Or did you just pop in to have a dig at another poster?

 

[{ Emilia }]

Wow, random ad hominem attacks for the win, huh?

Having a bad day? Condescending much?

The rest of your post kinda made sense but way to disqualify everything you said.

Do you have your own opinion on the topic at hand at all? Or did you just pop in to have a dig at another poster?

Umm? So he attacks another poster and you're giving me a hard time for calling him out on that without insulting him? Makes sense! Bizarro World

But anyway:
The thing is do you really think that Goliath' and RobMax' points of view were so far apart? Both agreed that children should be polite and well-mannered.
It's just that RobMax felt that sometimes the expectations are too high.

My point is that both points of view both seem valid to me (I did mention that Goliath's post made sense) and that I stand somewhere in the middle. The fact that it seemed such a harmless discussion made me wonder why the hell Goliath felt the need for an ad hominem attack making unqualified statements about another poster's childhood.

Regarding the issue at hand... none of them is completely wrong. Internet arguments just tend to go to extremes at times even when it's unnecessary.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

We are never equal, there will always be someone nearby needing your help, attention, and generosity of spirit. If you don't feel like giving that too often, that's fine...

I suppose I should explain; over much of my childhood and early adolescence, people took advantage of my desire to help and be generous. I was the least competitive, most cooperative child you could imagine. I didn't know how not to help others, even where it disadvantaged me. If my peers applied pressure, I responded, because to do otherwise felt like aggression or rudeness. And because I didn't stand up for myself, noone else did it for me. There's your Serengeti, I suppose. That's the problem - people often had no respect, no compassion, just the expectation that simply because you exist, you, and not they, will bend down. So I was run into the ground and I just accepted it because, hey, I existed to serve, yes? My only sense of worth came from helping others, making others feel good. The satisfaction when you do something for another is intense and rewarding. But over the course of late adolescence and young adulthood, I finally started feeling angry, angry over the way I'd been treated, how I'd been jeered and dismissed and tormented. I suppose the temporary boycott on seat giving was a youthful pettiness - for once it would be someone else simply "expected" to serve others. I got over it when I became an adult, happily.

First I had to learn to say "no", and maybe in my youth I didn't handle it sensibly. Then I had to learn the real lesson, which is how to continue saying "yes" in the sense of "yes, because I want to" or "yes, because it will help you", not "yes, because I exist to". I give up my seat not because I have to or because it's a transgression not to, but because I think it's kind - and I'm going to be kind. And thus I respond badly to implications or suggestions that I must serve others.

One more thing: I'll admit quite readily that, sadly, I can have a rather ugly sense of entitlement at times, a sort of angry selfishness that can pop up and demand recognition. Like most of us, I try to overcome my faults and achieve peace, but it's not easy. And you on the BBS have met the angry boy-me demanding you attend him before, sadly, and for which I apologise profoundly. I can only hope the better me has made a mark too. I'm not saying that streak of generalized resentment should be accepted or excused (I am grievously disappointed in myself when I fail to keep it at bay), but it's very much a part of me.

What we're getting at with this issue is that people want me, esentially, to be what I always was to begin with. But the majority of people around me treated me poorly when I was like that. I trust you realize it's hard to continue being "like that" now, despite my instinct to, and that I have to struggle against a lot of resentment and hurt? My overall point here is: If you want young people to be selfless and helpful, don't act like you're entitled to impose on them or demand of them, but encourage them from example or kindness.

I tend to have strong views on obligation, responsibility and individuality as a result.

 

[Random_Spock]

I've noticed that kids seem to be smarter these days than past generations but they are also more apathetic to just about anything. Not sure why this is the case. My stepdaughter is this way also..I try to explain to her why something might be interesting or important and she shrugs her shoulders in indifference.

Incidentally I help people all the time. Old, young whatever. Maybe it's because I don't live in the city.

RAMA

Agreed. They seem to think they're owed everything on a silver platter.

Not all of them are that way... but with the way things are going on television and in movies, let alone with what they learn from their parents... they're in for a rude awakening.

The world will not sit idly by and give them things, they have to learn how to get by in the world as best they can and especially learn how to treat others with respect.

Manners are a lost art these days .

 

[Amaris]

I see better manners exhibited by children than I do most adults. I've been in the grocery store and someone would bump into me. I'd automatically apologize (in an "oh, excuse me" kind of way), and that person wouldn't even look in my direction as a response. Most adults that do this are rather apathetic in their mannerisms. It gets annoying after a while, because you wonder whether these people have even a basic foundation of civility. I believe they do, but I also believe they simply don't care.

 

[{ Emilia }]

I see better manners exhibited by children than I do most adults. I've been in the grocery store and someone would bump into me. I'd automatically apologize (in an "oh, excuse me" kind of way), and that person wouldn't even look in my direction as a response. Most adults that do this are rather apathetic in their mannerisms. It gets annoying after a while, because you wonder whether these people have even a basic foundation of civility. I believe they do, but I also believe they simply don't care.

So do bad-mannered kids grow up to be bad-mannered adults?

Or do bad-mannered adults raise bad-mannered kids?

Or do nice kids turn into bad-mannered adults because society sometimes sucks?

I dunno! Just throwing that out there and rushing back to the kitchen to put my Pizza into the oven.

 

[An Officer]

Umm? So he attacks another poster and you're giving me a hard time for calling him out on that without insulting him? Makes sense! Bizarro World

What's bizarre about expecting you to mention the actual topic under discussion?

To clarify further, calling him out isn't the problem, I just found it odd you had no germane opinion to add. Makes you come off as pouring gasoline, rather than being interested in the actual topic.

Since you've added your opinion now, all's fair and square.

 

[Random_Spock]

I see better manners exhibited by children than I do most adults. I've been in the grocery store and someone would bump into me. I'd automatically apologize (in an "oh, excuse me" kind of way), and that person wouldn't even look in my direction as a response. Most adults that do this are rather apathetic in their mannerisms. It gets annoying after a while, because you wonder whether these people have even a basic foundation of civility. I believe they do, but I also believe they simply don't care.

Same here. I think it's somewhat even in terms of that.

{Emilia} brought up a good point about things. Society tends to promote the kind of environment that kids grow up in.

So if their parents grew up in a bad environment, there's probably more of a chance that their kids will grow up in the same way, since that's what the parents knew.

Not that it always turns out that way. There are times when the people have a chance to turn things around... either while they're growing up (ie: finding a mentor, etc) or when they're parenting (ie: learning that what they were trying to do in order to raise their child wasn't right, etc).

As for rudeness, I've noticed that there are a lot more bad drivers out on the road, both young and old.

It's time for some driver's ed review, methinks.

Way too much tailgating and just horrid driving.

And people don't seem to open doors for others that much any more . It's nice to see when others do something like that every now and then.

 

[Mary Ann]

I see better manners exhibited by children than I do most adults. I've been in the grocery store and someone would bump into me. I'd automatically apologize (in an "oh, excuse me" kind of way), and that person wouldn't even look in my direction as a response. Most adults that do this are rather apathetic in their mannerisms. It gets annoying after a while, because you wonder whether these people have even a basic foundation of civility. I believe they do, but I also believe they simply don't care.

So do bad-mannered kids grow up to be bad-mannered adults?

Or do bad-mannered adults raise bad-mannered kids?

Or do nice kids turn into bad-mannered adults because society sometimes sucks?

The first two certainly apply, unless the child has at least one other adult in his or her life who is a strong, positive influence on the child. In most cases the parent is the most influential person in the child's life and, in general, the child will model the behaviour of the parent. Look at the number of abused children who become abusers in adult life as an extreme example.

That being said, in the UK there's an overall culture of demonising children, especially adolescents. Sure, there is a small percentage of badly-behaved kids out there, but the vast majority of kids are well and truly good young people. Look what happens, though, when a small group of youths is walking down the street or in the park. Many times I've seen especially elderly people cross the street or walk the other way to avoid these kids when these kids are minding their own business and displaying no anti-social behaviour. A lot of kids take this personally. Many of them know full well they're all lumped together with the small minority of dysfunctional kids who have juvenile criminal records as long as their arms. Why should they go out of their way to be good citizens if society is just going to label them as juvenile delinquents no matter how they behave? If society is expects children to behave better then society must, in return, treat children with respect and expect the best rather than the worst from them. As I mentioned above, adults model behaviour for children, so if adults want children to have better manners then adults need to start behaving better, too, because far too many adults display bad manners and suffer from entitlement delusions.

 

[IndyJones]

Plus, I live in a small town.

It just seems to me that people in a small town are more concerned about common courtesy than people in a city.

And here's the view from "Real America!", where people are so gosh-darn upset about those big city dwellers thinkin' their better than the hard-workin' country folk. All while takin' every opportunity to show how much better they are.

Bleh.

 

[Vulagr]

And here's the view from "Real America!", where people are so gosh-darn upset about those big city dwellers thinkin' their better than the hard-workin' country folk. All while takin' every opportunity to show how much better they are.

You've never lived in California have you?

You'd be surprised how much of that "we're better than the common folk" stuff actually does go on here.

The generalization and hostility goes both ways, and they all think the other guy started it first.

But we're going off subject.