LEETA

[JoeZhang]

I guess beyond having a nice rack, the character did develop when they indicated their socialist principles by helping to form a labour union and engaged in collective bargaining.

Well, yeah. That's indeed kind of a redeeming quality. She really defeated the capitalists.

Yeah, maybe that was the defining point of the character - she was a supporting character but by standing together with other supporting characters, she was able to overcome the wishes and desires of one of the main characters. So a metaphor for how when the working (wo)man comes together with their brethren, they are stronger than alone and can resist exploitative capitalism (as exemplified by Quark) in a way that they cannot alone.

Plus she overcome sexual exploitation from her employer, so that's quite empowering as well.

 

[{ Emilia }]

Yeah, maybe that was the defining point of the character - she was a supporting character but by standing together with other supporting characters, she was able to overcome the wishes and desires of one of the main characters. So a metaphor for how when the working (wo)man comes together with their brethren, they are stronger than alone and can resist exploitative capitalism (as exemplified by Quark) in a way that they cannot alone.

Yeah, that's reasonable. And didn't Sisko intervene to help her cause by allowing the strike?
In fact I think he later told Quark to end the strike by giving in which is a wonderful example of social democrat politics and shows how state intervention helps the suppressed worker's cause. I'll have to consult Antonio Gramsci's works again.

Well, I suppose that's only fitting within the socialist framework of the Federation.

 

[JoeZhang]

Now I think about it - do we ever have any other references to the forming of unions by characters within Star Trek or is this unique?

Was there a cloud-miners union in the original series or did I misremember that?

 

[Sean Aaron]

Now I think about it - do we ever have any other references to the forming of unions by characters within Star Trek or is this unique?

Was there a cloud-miners union in the original series or did I misremember that?

You could be right.

I liked this character myself. She was a bit ditzy initially, but became part of the ensemble as time went on. I don't know if I would put her on a pedestal, but I enjoyed Ms. Masterson's performances.

 

[{ Emilia }]

Now I think about it - do we ever have any other references to the forming of unions by characters within Star Trek or is this unique?

Was there a cloud-miners union in the original series or did I misremember that?

I don't remember that but I think Miles O'Brien once claimed that one of his ancestors was a famous union leader.

 

[JoeZhang]

Now I think about it - do we ever have any other references to the forming of unions by characters within Star Trek or is this unique?

Was there a cloud-miners union in the original series or did I misremember that?

I don't remember that but I think Miles O'Brien once claimed that one of his ancestors was a famous union leader.

A couple of interesting nuggets from Memory Alpha:

Chief Miles O'Brien proudly claimed that his ancestor, Sean Aloysius O'Brien, led his union into the eleven-month Anthracite strike of 1902, before being killed one week before the strike's end. His body was found in the Allegheny River, riddled with bullets.

So the Chief was in favour of unions and collective bargaining (which makes sense given the socialist bent of the Federation).

The phrase spoken by Rom – "Workers of the world unite. You have nothing to lose but your chains" – is a quote from the 1848 book The Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels.

Rom was inspired by the work of Marks and Englels!

 

[{ Emilia }]

Wow, I didn't even remember Rom's quote. That's actually pretty nice. I should re-watch that episode but alas... I've sold my dvd's on ebay. :/

I wonder if this is something the writers had planned to put into the show as some sort of agenda. The episode was written by Ira Steven Behr and Robert Hewitt Wolfe. I had always associated Behr with a more conservative approach but maybe that's just me not liking Sisko's actions once in a while.

Do we know where Behr and Wolfe stand politically?

Hm, this is interesting:

Ira Steven Behr was responsible for some of the best Star Trek episodes ever produced, particularly in Deep Space Nine, which he eventually became the head writer for. When asked what super power he would want, he responded, "In addition to the ones I already have? I've been blessed with so many that I would feel like a Republican to ask for more."

I've been trying to figure out what he could possibly mean by this. Even if he's working with some nasty and uncharitable stereotype of Republicans, what could it be that Republicans are supposed to be like that even remotely resembles having super powers and asking for more super powers?

 

[Sean Aaron]

Do we know where Behr and Wolfe stand politically?

They struck me as pretty left of centre. I seem to recall some discussion of the episode in extras in the DVD box set and that part of the purpose of the episode was to develop Rom more as a foil to his brother, whilst also highlighting Quark's conservatism.

It was definitely a light episode, though it did deal with the serious topic of worker's rights; something which has sadly ebbed in America over the past three decades.

 

[JoeZhang]

Wow, I didn't even remember Rom's quote. That's actually pretty nice. I should re-watch that episode but alas... I've sold my dvd's on ebay. :/

I wonder if this is something the writers had planned to put into the show as some sort of agenda. The episode was written by Ira Steven Behr and Robert Hewitt Wolfe. I had always associated Behr with a more conservative approach but maybe that's just me not liking Sisko's actions once in a while.

Do we know where Behr and Wolfe stand politically?

Not sure - I'm going to have to watch the episode again. Also interesting transformation for Rom, earlier in the episode he notes to Doctor Bashir:

"You don't understand. Ferengi workers don't want to stop the exploitation. We want to find a way to become the exploiters."

Maybe another reference to Marx and his view of the exploitation of the worker?

Moreover, the episode also features the forces of capitalism (in this case the FCA) try to break the union via threats of physical violence and target Leeta - so her actions and storyline even more closely parallel what happens to Union activists in countries where capitalism has the whip-hand.

BTW, I like your reading that Sisko 'plays' the state - if I remember correctly, the federation actually owns the bar? So Sisko (as socialist state) cowls Quark (Captalism) by threatening to remove the means of production from his control.

 

[Thestral]

You guys are making some very good points. That's an episode where she shows both intelligence and real personality in organizing with the other workers in the Bar. It's too bad they couldn't continue her character in that vein.

Despite the sometime conservatism of DS9's war eps, I think overall there was a relatively leftist (perhaps not by European standards) slant to the Federation's portrayal. The show kinda got away from it when it became about the life and death struggle between the Federation and Dominion and it highlighted how people still don't live up to our promise in desperate situations, but the promise was always still there.

ETA: Adding to the above. Remember also how the last scene of the war went - not cheering and ticker-tape, but grimy, nasty, and dispiriting. And I can't recall any episodes off the top of my head where the war was glorified (by non-Klingons) and the glorifying character ended up ending well. This isn't even anti-war specifically, but I think it's interesting.

I liked this character myself. She was a bit ditzy initially, but became part of the ensemble as time went on. I don't know if I would put her on a pedestal, but I enjoyed Ms. Masterson's performances.

Oh, I definitely enjoyed as part of the ensemble most of the time.

 

[JoeZhang]

Interestingly, looking through the academic sources I have available to me, Picard's mention of "no money, people work for creative growth" in First Contact is picked up in a couple of works as having a Marxist reading but I can find nothing about this particular episode.

 

[Sean Aaron]

Interestingly, looking through the academic sources I have available to me, Picard's mention of "no money, people work for creative growth" in First Contact is picked up in a couple of works as having a Marxist reading but I can find nothing about this particular episode.

Guess there's not as many DS9 fans in economics?

 

[Rush Limborg]

^Of course, Nog effectively destroyed the credibility of that mindset in his banter with Jake in "In The Cards". Remember, Jake had to get money in order to get the card:

Nog: Use your money.

Jake: I'm human. I don't have any money!

Nog: It's not my fault your species abandoned currency in favor of some...philosophy of self-enhancement.

Jake: Hey. There's nothing wrong with our philosophy. We Work To Better Ourselves And The Rest Of Humanity. (Note: word-for-word what Picard said. What, is it an indoctrination slogan, or something?)

Nog: So, what does that mean, exactly?

Jake: (getting tense) It means--it means we don't need money!

Nog: Well, if you don't need money--then you certainly don't need mine.

Now I think about it - do we ever have any other references to the forming of unions by characters within Star Trek or is this unique?

Was there a cloud-miners union in the original series or did I misremember that?

I don't remember that but I think Miles O'Brien once claimed that one of his ancestors was a famous union leader.

Yeah, but as The Star Trek Encyclopedia noted, the union strike he refers too wasn't led by anyone named "Sean O'Brien".

Miles was probably engaging in something similar to Chekov's "Russian Inwention" antics in TOS....


BTW...if you watch the union ep carefully, it actually sets up a bit of a straw man, in regards to "labor vs. business".

Think about it: the FCA--which monitors, controls, and regulates every aspect of Ferengi commerce (read: big government!)--had imposed a ban on unions.

Unions are illegal--by law--in Ferengi society.

It was government intervention that made unions a no-no in Ferengi society--not the free market.

Furthermore, Rom notes that he had a standard Ferengi contract. I'm sorry--but "standard"? By what standard? In a free market--a true free market--there wouldn't be a "standard" contract for a society. It would vary from business to business. Such is another imposition of government.

Finally, the government--the FCA--steps in, and...


Furthermore...when we first encounter Brunt in "Family Business", note that Ferengi By-Laws (government regulations again!) forbid females from earning profit, etc.

In "Profit And Lace", Quark/Lumba explains to Nilva why removing such boundaries to women (again, boundaries enforced by government--as "Acting Grand Nagus Brunt" makes clear) would help the Ferengi economy--help business--help CEOs like Nilva.

Thus...in their attempt to indict capitalism, the show's writers end up indicting government intervention!

 

[JoeZhang]

Yeah, but as The Star Trek Encyclopedia noted, the union strike he refers too wasn't led by anyone named "Sean O'Brien".

I think it's a in-joke to the director John Ford; even then O'Brien clearly believes in unions as he tells the story to Rom to encourage him (which makes sense if you think of the positioning of O'Brien as the working man of the Star Trek Franchise).

 

[Admiral Shran]

Thus...in their attempt to indict capitalism, the show's writers end up indicting government intervention!

The problem is that when they try to indict free-market capitalism, they make the mistake of equating what we have in the real world with it. What we have is a very, very corrupted form of free-market capitalism. Call it crony-capitalism, corporatism or mercantilism but it's not the free-marketism that the DS9 writers assume it to be.

In their efforts to denounce this mercantilist (the definition I prefer) system, I completely agree with them. It is a very corrupt system.

 

[Thestral]

BTW...if you watch the union ep carefully, it actually sets up a bit of a straw man, in regards to "labor vs. business".

Think about it: the FCA--which monitors, controls, and regulates every aspect of Ferengi commerce (read: big government!)--had imposed a ban on unions.

Unions are illegal--by law--in Ferengi society.

It was government intervention that made unions a no-no in Ferengi society--not the free market.

Because as we all know, the government never intervenes on behalf of capitalism and big buisiness, right? Exploitation and the acquisition of limitless wealth is the core cultural - even religious - element of Ferengi society. You're right though, it would be better if the Ferengi government were strictly secular.

Furthermore, Rom notes that he had a standard Ferengi contract. I'm sorry--but "standard"? By what standard? In a free market--a true free market--there wouldn't be a "standard" contract for a society. It would vary from business to business. Such is another imposition of government.

In a culture that holds exploitation as a religious standard, it's natural that employers would collude to pay the least amount possible, thus creating a "standard" Ferengi contract.

Thus...in their attempt to indict capitalism, the show's writers end up indicting government intervention!

Not at all, especially when you take the whole episode into account, in which the state intervened on behalf of the workers. Thus we see an unjust government idicted as compared with a just one because of the allowance/support of unions; the episode's stance on the state in general is neutral.

The problem is that when they try to indict free-market capitalism, they make the mistake of equating what we have in the real world with it. What we have is a very, very corrupted form of free-market capitalism. Call it crony-capitalism, corporatism or mercantilism but it's not the free-marketism that the DS9 writers assume it to be.

What we have being criticized is an extreme version of how the system known as "the free market" actually functions in the real world. Thus the criticism is apt. Unless you'd care to criticize any other system without referrring to how it functions in the real world?

 

[Rush Limborg]

BTW...if you watch the union ep carefully, it actually sets up a bit of a straw man, in regards to "labor vs. business".

Think about it: the FCA--which monitors, controls, and regulates every aspect of Ferengi commerce (read: big government!)--had imposed a ban on unions.

Unions are illegal--by law--in Ferengi society.

It was government intervention that made unions a no-no in Ferengi society--not the free market.

Because as we all know, the government never intervenes on behalf of capitalism and big buisiness, right?

It shouldn't--either way. In a true-blue, honest-to-goodness free-market system, the government would not have anything like the FCA. It would not ban unions; it would not prop them up, either.

Exploitation and the acquisition of limitless wealth is the core cultural - even religious - element of Ferengi society. You're right though, it would be better if the Ferengi government were strictly secular.

Secular, but not atheistic.

Furthermore, Rom notes that he had a standard Ferengi contract. I'm sorry--but "standard"? By what standard? In a free market--a true free market--there wouldn't be a "standard" contract for a society. It would vary from business to business. Such is another imposition of government.

In a culture that holds exploitation as a religious standard, it's natural that employers would collude to pay the least amount possible, thus creating a "standard" Ferengi contract.

And as Rom himself said in "Dogs Of War," "unharassed" workers mean productive workers. A company that would not "exploit" its workers would encourage employees of competitors to quit and work for the non-exploiter. Then, they compete for productivity.

This encourages profit-minded competitors to change how they treat workers.

Furthermore, considering how the "Rules Of Acquisition" were written by the Naguses--it is another example of government regulation. Government decree--enforced by the FCA, a la "Body Parts"--determining the direction of business.


Side note: Considering how Rom is still trying to buy Quark's bar in "Dogs Of War"...it appears he's still no Communist--and his quoting of Marx in "Bar Association" was just to tick Quark off....

Thus...in their attempt to indict capitalism, the show's writers end up indicting government intervention!

Not at all, especially when you take the whole episode into account, in which the state intervened on behalf of the workers. Thus we see an unjust government idicted as compared with a just one because of the allowance/support of unions; the episode's stance on the state in general is neutral.

If by the state, you mean Sisko...he was compensating for the regulation of the FCA.

If the Ferengi government did not actively regulate against workers...Sisko would not have had to respond in favor of them, necessarily.

The problem is that when they try to indict free-market capitalism, they make the mistake of equating what we have in the real world with it. What we have is a very, very corrupted form of free-market capitalism. Call it crony-capitalism, corporatism or mercantilism but it's not the free-marketism that the DS9 writers assume it to be.

What we have being criticized is an extreme version of how the system known as "the free market" actually functions in the real world. Thus the criticism is apt. Unless you'd care to criticize any other system without referrring to how it functions in the real world?

The Borg, I would say, is a critique of the theory of Communism--classless, all things equal, all working for the Collective Good--"From Each According To His Ability," blah, blah, blah.... It's a darn good critique, too.

The Ferengi is a good critique of Corporatism--what happens when the government toys with Capitalism to further its power, its "profits", by making deals with certain businesses: propping them up...bailing them out...giving them loopholes...and so on. Such is not a "free market"--not by a long shot--nor is it how the free market "functions in the real world," because it is not a free market.

As such, it is not a good critique of the theory of Capitalism--as, again, the government (the Nagus and the FCA) constantly intervenes to further its own interests. Thus, the criticism is not apt.

 

[backstept]

gotta love it!
a troll thread about a Star Trek babe derailed into 24th Century politics

 

[Admiral Shran]

gotta love it!
a troll thread about a Star Trek babe derailed into 24th Century politics

Thus is the way here in the DS9 forum.

The Ferengi is a good critique of Corporatism--what happens when the government toys with Capitalism to further its power, its "profits", by making deals with certain businesses: propping them up...bailing them out...giving them loopholes...and so on. Such is not a "free market"--not by a long shot--nor is it how the free market "functions in the real world," because it is not a free market.

As such, it is not a good critique of the theory of Capitalism--as, again, the government (the Nagus and the FCA) constantly intervenes to further its own interests. Thus, the criticism is not apt.

Exactly. The Ferengi are a very apt critique of Corporatism/Mercantilism. The problem is that the show does not call them corporatists or mercantilists, it explicitly calls them free-marketers. They are not.

This isn't how free market economics work in the real world - because, as Rush said, what we have isn't a truly free market.

It's like I've already said - the show clearly wants to be criticize the system we currently live with in the real world. In that sense, I completely agree with them. The system we have is massively corrupt and unjust. But they make the mistake that so many make and call what we currently have Pure Free Market Capitalism. Again, it simply is not. If the Ferengi were actual free-marketers, they would not have the FCA and the Grand Nagus would be a much, much less powerful position. If we had a true free market in the real world, conversely, we wouldn't have things like the Federal Reserve, TARP, Freddie Mac, Fannie May or the Code of Federal Regulations.

On top of that, if the Ferengi were truly believers in the free market, they wouldn't be the sexists that they are. Being both a sexist and a capitalist pig isn't compatible. If their sole purpose is to make as much profit as they possibly could (which is what capitalists are always accused of), why would they ensure that HALF of their population couldn't be paying customers? It makes no sense.

Now, if anybody wants to talk about Leeta some more, I'm game.

 

[The Dominion]

On top of that, if the Ferengi were truly believers in the free market, they wouldn't be the sexists that they are. Being both a sexist and a capitalist pig isn't compatible. If their sole purpose is to make as much profit as they possibly could (which is what capitalists are always accused of), why would they ensure that HALF of their population couldn't be paying customers? It makes no sense.

They have lots of other people to sell to, and it eliminates competition.