Biggest Star Wars Facepalm
- Thread starter TheLobes
- Start date
~Points and Hisses~ You speak of abomination!
Kidding aside: I don't have a big issue with the concept of midichlorians, but I do with their execution. They really needed to make Qui-Gon and others that put a lot of stock in a biological explanation for Force Sensitivity the odd guys out in the order.
Not really. Anakin was always in there, he just looked like Hayden. Both scenarios equally imply separation between Vader and Anakin.
sonak said:
If you think having a young-looking Force ghost is some kind of "reward", you may be missing the point. They're not trying to pick up girls.
Brian said:
They? Obi-Wan told a justifiable lie with good intent ( and was told to do so by Qui-Gon anyway ). He was not going against the Force in this; he was trying to do the right thing as explained in ROTJ. Yoda didn't lie.
General_Phoenix said:
ANH novel said:
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Which, IMO, weakens the story. It gives Anakin a pass on the shit he did as Vader by making his story more of a possession story than a story about a good man that fell from grace and who's only spark of light left was for his son. Instead we get a story about a Good Man trapped in his own body by a dark force (boooo) and in no way is responsible for the millions of deaths he caused.
By making a hard line seperation between the minds of Vader and Anakin (just to get around a badly written line in RotJ with Obi Wan trying to sell snake oil about his lie in ANH) it cheapens Anakin's story..
The films never say he's not responsible.
ROTJ pretty much already gave him a pass despite a litany of crimes including mass murder, spousal abuse and child murder
Editing out Shaw for Christensen just makes it more apparent
Editing out Shaw for Christensen just makes it more apparent
There is an unfilmed scene that takes place after the crazy Ewok party where we see Yoda and Obi-Wan leading Anakin's forceghost to Jedi Hell, where he spends eternity getting his legs and arms chopped off and his torso set on fire while he watches Padme die.
If Anakin and Vader are treated as two individuals, then Vader was the murderer not Anakin. Therefore Anakin isn't held to account, only Vader.
This is why I call bullshit on the whole ideal of treating Vader and Anakin as two distinct individuals-- which is largely post PT revisionism as the OT never implies that they were, only that Obi Wan considered Anakin dead when he turned.
And don't pull out a novel. If I'm a movie goer with no interest in Star Wars beyond what I see in the theater or on a DVD and don't read the comics, the novels, or play the games, then that is information that is unimportant to the story I'm being told as as a member of the audience.
And that's what you get: Anakin = Vader, we see that in Episode III, Episode VI implies that Luke is redeeming Anakin (aka Vader). If you go by the movies.
I'm just waiting for Lucas to finish gutting the OT to make it fit the PT and have Padme and Qui-Gon at the end of RotJ as force ghosts loving up on the rascal Anakin.
Then it was "weak" in the first place: The ideal that no matter how dark Vader was, at his core he was still Anakin. Hence the phrase "both scenarios".
Adm. V'ates said:
The novels are consistent with the films. The position embodied in the quote "at his core he was still Anakin" appears almost verbatim in one of them.
Adm. V'ates said:
The mother of all strawmen.
Adm. V'ates said:
I'm the one not going by the movies? Where in the movies does it say Anakin is not responsible for the deaths he caused?
Hound Of UIster said:
Actually, it didn't. People may insist that it did, but those are two different things.
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That's what is in the movie. Anakin is "knighted" as Darth Vader. He turned to save Padme. No where does it show Anakin being possessed by a dark-side spirit, no where does it show his mind being taken over by another individual mind or spirit.
Vader = Anakin, Anakin = Vader.
He's standing there, with Obi Wan and Yoda at the end. A last minute act of good is enough save him from hell.
I'm pret-ty sure that was the intent of even conceiving the PT in the first place, and a major selling point of the Vader character to begin with (at least after ESB). The "I *AM* your father" revelation is all about establishing that Skywalker connection.
If Anakin was possessed by some kind of dark side spirit or otherwise overwhelming external influence, THAT I would argue would be the revisionistic part. As ROTJ showed, Palpatine can only go so far with his manipulations -- Luke and Darth both demonstrate that the rest is left up to the choice of the individual.
The problem arises in the SE+ tendency to treat Anakin and Vader as two people or that Anakin "real" self cease to exist when he was knight as Vader
That is still the mother of all strawmen.
Adm. V'ates said:
So he's standing there. Where does the movie say he's not responsible for the deaths he caused? Standing doesn't convey that.
Adm. V'ates said:
No, that's only your own invention. The film never said that.
It doesn't make any sense at all-- unless you're trying to show horn in a connection to the PT. For all the logic of swapping out Hayden for Shaw you bide as well swap McGegor for Guiness (sp)
Conversely, the film never shows Vader/Anakin paying for his crimes either.
^Hey, I just stepped in to point out that neither side of the argument is supported in the movie to any degree. Vader/Anakin didn't benefit nor suffer for his crimes after death. Of course, there is no real explanation for why he gets to be a young ghost unlike the others. Maybe he's just better at it, being the "chosen one" and all.
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