Plot hole city: Part 3!

[Pauln6]

The issue isn't speed, it's comparative speed within the same story. Speed of Plot is an excuse but that doesn't automatically exclude it from resulting in a plot hole.

Personally, I'm not happy with the lazy excuse that warp drive has improved to an extent far in excess of what was possible 100 years in the future. If it did, it could only be scans of the Narada that was the catalyst and if the Narada's technology was the basis for the research then the Narada's speed should rival the Federation ships (top speeds may vary but that isn't relevant to the issue we are discussing).

As far as we know, the Klingon Empire isn't suddenly dozens of light years closer to Vulcan than it used to be so Nero must be travelling very fast. If Nero can travel from Klingon space to Vulcan in a day with a stop-over to collect Spock then he can travel Earth much faster than that. We know the distance that Kirk has to travel to reach the outpost on Delta Vega and this gives us a rough idea of the amount of time he spends walking (plus an unspecified time being unconscious and an unspecified time talking to Spock and Scotty.

As I said, the fact that Enterprise arrives in time is a plot contrivance. The fact that Nero travelled slow enough for that to be a possibility at all is a plot hole. Lots of things could have delayed him - interrogating Pike, repairing damage, blowing up the much closer Andor on the way, fighting off Earth's defences, stopping off at Starbucks for coffee etc but none of those are specified in the plot - so it is a plot hole.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Bollocks. The TOS Enterprise would have made Voyager's cross-galactic journey in 4 weeks, according to the time/distance ratio explicitly stated by Spock. In TAS and STV they flew to the centre of the galaxy. In TOS they started out at the rim of the galaxy. In "Broken Bow" the Enterprise reached Kronos from Earth in hours at warp 4. Every planet in the quadrant was a short runabout ride away from DS9 (runabout top speed: warp 4.7).

You're trying to complain about time/distance/speed relative to meaningless, incorrect-at-time-of-publication charts in technical manuals, by apocraphyl space maps and by picking specific and obsolete retcons amongst dozens to hold up your argument.

 

[Pauln6]

You're trying to complain about time/distance/speed relative to meaningless, incorrect-at-time-of-publication charts in technical manuals, by apocraphyl space maps and by picking specific and obsolete retcons amongst dozens to hold up your argument.

It doesn't matter that much how fast they can travel at top speed because they AREN'T travelling at top speed. What matters is how fast they travel in relation to each other. Nero has no on-screen reason to travel as slowly as he does, taking about a day to get to Earth. We can make up excuses and add in supposition but on screen we are given no reasons so it is a plot hole.

Similarly, we are given no reasons why the Enterprise, Delta Vega, or escaping Vulcan ships would not warn Earth about Nero's approach. Knowing that Pike is captured is of vital importance to Earth's defences after all. Interrogating Pike is irrelevant unless there is nobody around to tell Earth that their security might be compromised (and in a world full of telepaths and mind-sifters this is always a possibility). This isn't a plot hole mind you but it does demonstrate the stupidity of either Nero or the Enterprise crew.

Subspace communication from Vulcan to Earth is pretty much instantaneous (we see this from the distress call earlier). It's inconceivable that there was no way to communicate with Earth and even if the Enterprise's communications were out (including shuttles and emergency distress beacons on escape pods) there is no evidence that Spock checked in with Delta Vega to see if their communications were working.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

The Enterprise has always moved at the speed of plot.

My favorite is in TNG season one, Conspiracy: "We've recently been on the edge of Federation space! Let's go to Earth!!!" Zip! "There's the Moon!!!!!"

According to Memory Alpha, Dytallix B is over 400 light years from Earth, which would take over 96 days at a continuous speed of warp 9 to travel.

But on the other hand, the stardate at the beginning of Conspiracy is 41775.5, while at the end it is 41780.2. According to Memory Alpha, this is at most a week, certainly not months.

Plot hole!!!!!!!! (No, of course it isn't.)

 

[Pauln6]

The Enterprise has always moved at the speed of plot.

My favorite is in TNG season one, Conspiracy: "We've recently been on the edge of Federation space! Let's go to Earth!!!" Zip! "There's the Moon!!!!!"

According to Memory Alpha, Dytallix B is over 400 light years from Earth, which would take over 96 days at a continuous speed of warp 9 to travel.

But on the other hand, the stardate at the beginning of Conspiracy is 41775.5, while at the end it is 41780.2. According to Memory Alpha, this is at most a week, certainly not months.

Plot hole!!!!!!!! (No, of course it isn't.)

Wasn't there some wierd plan to fly an armada of ships from Romulan space to Vulcan seemingly at sub-light speed in Reunification too?

I realise I'm repeating myself but its only because everybody seems to be repeating the same excuse in the same way: the issue here is not how long it takes to get to Earth; it's how long it takes to get to Earth in comparison to each other. That is where the plot hole lies.

 

[F. King Daniel]

But that's based on your assumpions of where the neutal zone, Vulcan and Earth lie relative to each other, and Narada's top speed. The only thing we know for sure is that Enterprise was limited to warp 4 by damage incurred in the attack above Vulcan.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Look, here's the thing.

It's nothing to get bent out of shape about.

Anytime any new story needs to, it just steamrolls right over any previously "established" distance/time relationships and substitutes its own. These then become the new established relationships until it's their turn to get steamrolled over. It's no big deal. It's always been that way. It's just a TV show. Everything on it is made up anyway.

(No, dude, it's real!!!!!)

 

[Pauln6]

Anytime any new story needs to, it just steamrolls right over any previously "established" distance/time relationships and substitutes its own. These then become the new established relationships until it's their turn to get steamrolled over. It's no big deal. It's always been that way. It's just a TV show. Everything on it is made up anyway.

(No, dude, it's real!!!!!)

Oh I agree - but in the context of a thread looking for plot holes a high degree of nitpicking is a requirement. Just because we understand the technique that they use doesn't mean they don't sometimes leave a plot hole. If you are required to make assumptions to explain an outcome because the plot doesn't specify, then you have a plot hole (in this case we might be required for example to assume that the Narada's top speed is warp 3.8 and that the Klingon prison planet is half as close to the border with Romulan space, which is then also half as close to Vulcan as Vulcan is to Earth).

The plot hole is only really left because they let Kirk waste so much time on Delta Vega and then specify a low warp speed for the Enterprise to catch up. If they had not mentioned the speed limit of the Enterprise or had beamed Kirk directly to the outpost thus using up mere hours instead of a day, there would be a plot contrivance, rather than a plot hole.

The closest they come to explaining the Narada's slow speed is implying that they need to interrogate Pike to get past Earth's defences. That doesn't change the fact that Pike's capture is irrelevant to Earth's defences from the moment Starfleet Command knows he has been captured so Nero's only real hope would be to get the information and get to earth fast before they can react. A leisurely day's journey would be pointless and might even give enough time for the fleet to get back from the Laurentian system with all these fuzzy speeds. This is why I think it qualifies as a plot hole.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

OK, I have to admit, this is the best candidate for a plot hole mentioned in these threads so far. So to review:

1. Sulu's report that the ship is now at maximum warp makes it seem that Chekov begins his intelligence briefing within minutes of the Enterprise leaving Earth on its way to Vulcan. That briefing leads Kirk to rush to Uhura, and then rush to the bridge. The end result of this is that the trip from Earth to Vulcan apparently takes only a few minutes.
2. Once Vulcan is destroyed, Uhura says that Nero is heading for Earth, and Chekov says that to be overtaken, Nero's ship would have to drop out of warp.
3. But then, Kirk goes to Delta Vega, apparently walks 14 kilometers on foot (though maybe Spock Prime has a buggy), comes back with Scotty, Spock sulks some more, but then comes back inspired. The crew mesh together, and they plot and plan.
4. Then, finally, Nero lowers the drill towards Earth, and Enterprise zips into Titan's atmosphere.
5. The result of this is that the trip from where Vulcan used to be back to Earth seems to comparatively take a really long time.

So, in short, this is the issue: What is this tailwind that gets Enterprise to Vulcan really fast that seems to turn into a headwind that makes its trip back to Earth really long? Correct?

 

[Broccoli]

^ No. Nero needed those defense codes from Pike. Who knows how long it took before Pike eventually coughed them up. And if you are wondering why it took the Enterprise so long to get to Earth. They were going to a different place before Kirk took command and headed back to Earth.

Finally, there is nothing in the movie that directly says it took a few minutes to get to Vulcan. True, it looked like it, but there could have been a time lapse between scenes (though it would make it odd that Chekov is giving the ship wide communication right before they reach Vulcan, but I'm not a Starship Captain who makes those decisions).

 

[Pauln6]

So, in short, this is the issue: What is this tailwind that gets Enterprise to Vulcan really fast that seems to turn into a headwind that makes its trip back to Earth really long? Correct?

I think so or rather the headwind that makes Nero's trip back to Earth so slow. There are many POSSIBLE explanations, just none that are stated expressly in the movie. Thus it qualifies as a plot hole in my view. In addition, it isn't as easy to plug it with supposition as one might think. If you adjust one piece of the puzzle, it tends to open up another plot hole in a different context.

^ No. Nero needed those defense codes from Pike. Who knows how long it took before Pike eventually coughed them up. And if you are wondering why it took the Enterprise so long to get to Earth. They were going to a different place before Kirk took command and headed back to Earth.

This is one of those shifting bits of the puzzle. Why does Nero need the defence codes? Presumably because he wants to bypass Earth's defences. However, as soon as Starfleet knows Pike is captured, they will change their defence codes thus making Pike irrelevant. So either Nero needs to interrogate Pike and get to Earth super fast or Pike is irrelevant to the attack on Earth (there may be other reasons to keep him alive).

So if Nero spends a day getting defence codes out of Pike EITHER Starfleet is incompetent for not changing them OR Nero is incompetent for leaving the Enterprise intact so that they can warn Starfleet OR the Enterprise is incompetent for forgetting to tell Starfleet. Take your pick!

 

[CorporalCaptain]

@Broccoli: OK then, the only weakness remaining is that Uhura says that Nero is headed to Earth and Chekov says he cannot be overtaken. We would have to assume that Nero stopped along the way, slowed down, or headed off in another direction, to wait for Pike to sing. Or, that Enterprise's warp drive is busted.

Or, that it took a while for Enterprise to get up to full warp on the way to Vulcan. But that is not the way the film plays at all.

@Pauln6: I'm not ready to call this a hole yet, but it's the fishiest thing pointed out in all three threads so far.

 

[Broccoli]

So if Nero spends a day getting defence codes out of Pike EITHER Starfleet is incompetent for not changing them OR Nero is incompetent for leaving the Enterprise intact so that they can warn Starfleet OR the Enterprise is incompetent for forgetting to tell Starfleet. Take your pick!

All not plot holes, and has nothing to do with the speed of the Enterprise.

@Broccoli: OK then, the only weakness remaining is that Uhura says that Nero is headed to Earth and Chekov says he cannot be overtaken. We would have to assume that Nero stopped along the way, slowed down, or headed off in another direction, to wait for Pike to sing. Or, that Enterprise's warp drive is busted.

They were not heading in Earth's direction. They were regrouping with "the fleet" somewhere else. And it's possible that Nero took a quick stop before attacking Earth.

Or, that it took a while for Enterprise to get up to full warp on the way to Vulcan. But that is not the way the film plays at all.

It is also not a plot hole.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

They were not heading in Earth's direction.

I know. It doesn't matter which way they were headed because Chekov said specifically that even if they tried to overtake Nero, they couldn't. Given when he said that, this means Nero was not going slow.

It is also not a plot hole.

I know.

 

[Set Harth]

Wasn't there some wierd plan to fly an armada of ships from Romulan space to Vulcan seemingly at sub-light speed in Reunification too?

I think it's safe to assume that you can't get from Romulan space to Vulcan at sublight speed ( not in any kind of feasible timeframe ).

 

[Broccoli]

It doesn't matter which way they were headed because Chekov said specifically that even if they tried to overtake Nero, they couldn't. Given when he said that, this means Nero was not going slow.

No. All it means is that they thought Nero wasn't going to slow down.

 

[Pauln6]

So if Nero spends a day getting defence codes out of Pike EITHER Starfleet is incompetent for not changing them OR Nero is incompetent for leaving the Enterprise intact so that they can warn Starfleet OR the Enterprise is incompetent for forgetting to tell Starfleet. Take your pick!

All not plot holes, and has nothing to do with the speed of the Enterprise.

@Broccoli: OK then, the only weakness remaining is that Uhura says that Nero is headed to Earth and Chekov says he cannot be overtaken. We would have to assume that Nero stopped along the way, slowed down, or headed off in another direction, to wait for Pike to sing. Or, that Enterprise's warp drive is busted.

They were not heading in Earth's direction. They were regrouping with "the fleet" somewhere else. And it's possible that Nero took a quick stop before attacking Earth.

Or, that it took a while for Enterprise to get up to full warp on the way to Vulcan. But that is not the way the film plays at all.

It is also not a plot hole.

I wasn't suggesting that these were plot holes. I was simply saying that these are some of the explanations that some people might use to try and plug the plot hole but that they don't really make good sense. The existence of possible off camera reasons do not negate the existence of plot holes - it is the requirement for off camera reasons that confirm the existence of plot holes. If Nero takes a quick stop before attacking Earth he gives away the advantage of getting codes off Pike.

I do accept that all of this makes (no) sense if we hand wave it away by blaming Nero's insanity, although he did not give the impression that he was incapable of rational thought (he was rational enough to work out where and when Spock would arrive).

As I've said before, rendezvousing with the fleet at warp 4 is also silly. The Enterprise should really just signal the fleet and focus on helping refugees while repairing the ship to full power at the Vulcan system. At maximum warp, the fleet can intercept the Enterprise at any point and overtake her to get back to Earth. Limping toward the fleet is not logical as it makes absolutely no difference to how quickly the fleet can reach Earth. If we are supposed to believe that the fleet has no mechanism in place to allow it to be contacted while doing whatever they are doing (such as leaving a vessel within communications range), then this is more evidence of incompetence on Starfleet's part!

Trying to work out why the fleet could not be contacted might make sense but that would have included liaising with Scotty. If they had shown Nero destroying subspace relays on his way to Vulcan to disrupt the Federation's long-distance comms network then I would have been far more impressed with the attention to detail.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

It doesn't matter which way they were headed because Chekov said specifically that even if they tried to overtake Nero, they couldn't. Given when he said that, this means Nero was not going slow.

No. All it means is that they thought Nero wasn't going to slow down.

It means that Enterprise, in whatever condition she was in, could not outrun Nero (before he was projected to arrive at Earth assuming he was on a nonstop trajectory). That's what I meant by "Nero was not going slow".

Yes, they assumed Nero wasn't going to stop, while they took the Enterprise off in a different direction. I follow you there.

But in order for everything to hang together, Nero must have later stopped heading towards Earth at high warp. That's all I'm getting out of this.

It's nothing to label a hole. It's just fishy, is all I'm going to say.

 

[Pauln6]

It's nothing to label a hole. It's just fishy, is all I'm going to say.

Tut tut. If there is no explanation, it's a plot hole. It may not be a big one and it may be explainable by extrapolation (subject to the knock on effect of that extrapolation) but it is still a plot hole.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I disagree. The more I think about it, it's not a plot hole.

We don't need to have tracked all the movements of all players to know it's not a plot hole.

We know Pike was being interrogated for codes. There is a ready explanation available for why Nero would pause before going to Earth. He doesn't believe he needs to evade anyone, so him going on an evasive course is unnecessary.

Adding one more scene:

Flunky: Nero, we have the defense codes!
Nero: Move into the Solar System!!!

would have fixed everything. Its absence doesn't constitute a hole. The fact that its inclusion, it being consistent with everything else, would have eliminated all questionable aspects of this issue proves that this issue is not a plot hole.

Of course, you are going to say, but Starfleet should have changed the codes. Well, maybe, maybe not, but that's not a plot hole either.

However, again, in my opinion, this has been the most worthy candidate.