By the 24th century, various members of the Federation stated that they no longer use money. But that doesn't make a whole lot of sense, if Star fleet officers don't have money, how do they deal with cultures that do use money? For example when the DS9 crew goes to Quark's bar for lunch, I would assume Quark would want them to pay him for the lunch. Also in the TNG episode "The Price" the Federation was bidding on the rights to a wormhole, if they don't have any money, how are they bidding on it?
The Federation not having any money
- Thread starter The Overlord
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Except I doubt Quark would want to barter every time a Star fleet officer came to his bar and I pretty the people who controlled that Wormhole wanted money for it. Barter is very ineffective compared to money based system.
On DS9 the impression I got is that everyone got a sort of allowance of Bajoran currency or gold pressed latinum, as an essentially communist economic system they would have no issue with distributing money to people that way for trade outside the federation. How they got it? I guess by trading goods to those societies in exchange for it.
As for "The Price", they could simply put in a bid and if they win, give an equivalent amount of an agreed upon resource.
As for "The Price", they could simply put in a bid and if they win, give an equivalent amount of an agreed upon resource.
But why would the Barzan not prefer a bid in money instead of a bid where both the Barzan and the federation have to figure out what kind of resources the Federation have compared to what the Barzan want? A money bid is far attractive because it is far less convoluted, the Barzan can just use the money to get whatever they want, rather then trying to figure out a convoluted deal with the Federation to figure what the Federation has and what the Barzan need.
There was also that time in Chain of Command, where Picard, Dr. Crusher and Worf were looking to buy passage on a Ferengi ship because they wanted to sneak into a Cardassian sector where the Federation thought the central command was making WMDs and that particular Ferengi vessel was allowed in that sector for trade purposes. The Ferengi captain would have wanted money for such a passage and I doubt he would want to barter.
The concept is always going to be virtually impossible to pin down. The Federation and Starfleet as an entity certainly appears to have money of a sort for use in dealing with civilisations who use it, so there is presumably an exchange-rate mechanism in place - the officers on DS9 pay for drinks at Quarks, so we can assume they are allocated funds from somewhere by Starfleet that are converted into latinum or whatever the merchant in question prefers.
It's all a bit contradictory. I can get onboard with Earth, Vulcan and the 'core' Federation worlds not using money as we understand it, but to be honest the whole idea falls down when given any real analysis.
Perhaps I'm wrong, but while I can understand people exploring aboard starships working for free, I have a harder time imagining people doing all those unglamorous jobs behind the scenes without some form of payment.
It's all a bit contradictory. I can get onboard with Earth, Vulcan and the 'core' Federation worlds not using money as we understand it, but to be honest the whole idea falls down when given any real analysis.
Perhaps I'm wrong, but while I can understand people exploring aboard starships working for free, I have a harder time imagining people doing all those unglamorous jobs behind the scenes without some form of payment.
This old chestnut...
Money exists, as others have said as a shorthand for goods and services people want and need. Sure some people acquire money because they like having lots of money, and don't spend it, but that is not why it is there.
Assuming what clearly is stated in the show, that people are not so greedy and selfish any more, and don't feel such a strong need to outdo their neighbours, then the lack of money does not really imply capitalism or communism. Those are ways of allocating scarce resources, whereas in the Federation the essentials are not scarce.
The difficulty comes if someone wants their own starship, or their own *insert incredibly expensive even in Treks universe thing here* - how do they get this without a means of acquiring immense wealth? It could be argued that this kind of wealth is wrong, that no-one should have that much money. Tough sell for an American audience though.
The Federation can be interpreted as the ultimate in collectivism or individualism depending on your point of view. It seems like everyone on Earth gets free food, clothing, shelter, transport, education and that much of what we grab for these days is meaningless as you can replicate as much crap as you like.
We all live in immensely wasteful, greedy societies that are obsessed with material goods, conspicuous consumption and the acquisition of money. This goes way beyond any natural desire for comfort or security. If we get over this by the 24th century (and something somewhere has to give) then this will be a good thing.
We are already facing, with the decline of the US economy, the Eurozone crisis and the rise of Asia a massive change in the world's economy - maybe we will ultimately get to a social and technological level where money is fairly meaningless?
I just chalk it up that physical money doesn't exist in the Federation and leave it at that. As a result, the "no money" issue has never bothered me in the slightest.
The Federation doesn't have any money because they have an unlimited supply of energy and have replicators. They can replicate anything they want. Thus, energy becomes their currency, so to speak.
Latinum can't be replicated.
So they can exchange Latinum for energy. It takes xx amounts of power to create a T shirt, and a T shirt costs yy bars of Latinum. It's easy, and makes sense.
What's more important to this "no money" thing is that they eliminated greed. That's more the point. "The accumulation of things" no longer concerns humans.
Latinum can't be replicated.
So they can exchange Latinum for energy. It takes xx amounts of power to create a T shirt, and a T shirt costs yy bars of Latinum. It's easy, and makes sense.
What's more important to this "no money" thing is that they eliminated greed. That's more the point. "The accumulation of things" no longer concerns humans.
So, in other words, they get paid in a units of value.
There's a name for units of value, the term escapes me.
So Quark's bar accepts energy as payment, how does that work?
So, in other words, they get paid in a units of value.
There's a name for units of value, the term escapes me.
That's what makes it complicated, money just represents the relative value of things, a diamond necklace costs more money than a t-shirt because it is made of scarcer materials and uses skilled labour to manufacture it.
However that idea of relative wealth goes out of the window if technology removes the value of "stuff". Currently lots of things are artificially made more expensive, by sticking a name on it, by a badge. This is again fairly meaningless when you can create a bit-perfect replica of anything.
Maybe the simple answer is the Federation internally tends not to use money, and allocates resources based on need to a population with a life made easy by technology, where everyone can do what they want to do. With Trek levels of tech, this is perfectly plausible.
They do however need to trade with other species, and therefore need quantities of universal currencies (like Latinum) that they trade for, for the use of their citizens, or for their own purposes.
There are a lot of contradictory statements in the canon about whether or not the Federation has money. I'd argue that the most reasonable inference is that the Federation lacks physical currency, and that the resources necessary to sustain a healthy lifestyle for all citizens exists in such a state of abundance than one need not have money to survive -- you're guaranteed a minimum standard of living, but if you want more, you have to earn money to purchase it.
It's probably more like the Federation has an agreement with the Ferengi. They deliver goods to the Ferengi in exchange for Latinum, and they supply Starfleet officers in certain regions with Latinum bars. And we've also seen Starfleet personel trading stuff for Latinum in DS9, too.
Well, Picard states that money doesn't exist in the 24th century and further elaborates that the desire for material possessions has ceased being the driving factor for Humanity. It's extremely hard to even piece together a concept based on such little information.
I assume that replicators have eliminated the need for currency where the items that can be produced by the replicators are concerned. Even prior to that, we can assume that things needed to live a comfortable existence were free. When it comes to property and land however, that could be a different story and one that I could be here all night trying to theorise about!
Let's assume that a system of virtual currency exists within the Federation. Those in Starfleet would earn this currency as an allowance of sorts, but wouldn't have to spend it whilst in service (because Starfleet would provide everything they need or desire, whilst serving - free of charge, as part of their service).
Now lets assume that the same applies to civilians, but obviously they do need to spend currency. Lets assume that the currency is needed to buy things such as ship energy, interterrestrial transport and land, we can then hypothesise that everything they should ever need or desire is free, but things that aren't in abundance requires virtual currency (credits, etc). Therefore they work, primarily to better themselves and the rest of the Federation, but they also recieve currency that allows them the opportunities to seek out newer horizons or trade for other currency such as Latinum.
I assume that replicators have eliminated the need for currency where the items that can be produced by the replicators are concerned. Even prior to that, we can assume that things needed to live a comfortable existence were free. When it comes to property and land however, that could be a different story and one that I could be here all night trying to theorise about!
Let's assume that a system of virtual currency exists within the Federation. Those in Starfleet would earn this currency as an allowance of sorts, but wouldn't have to spend it whilst in service (because Starfleet would provide everything they need or desire, whilst serving - free of charge, as part of their service).
Now lets assume that the same applies to civilians, but obviously they do need to spend currency. Lets assume that the currency is needed to buy things such as ship energy, interterrestrial transport and land, we can then hypothesise that everything they should ever need or desire is free, but things that aren't in abundance requires virtual currency (credits, etc). Therefore they work, primarily to better themselves and the rest of the Federation, but they also recieve currency that allows them the opportunities to seek out newer horizons or trade for other currency such as Latinum.
Why are most of you assuming that an economy without money/currency cannot exist?
Oh right... because you are viewing things from your own limited perception of the early 21st century in which capitalism was droned into the skulls of most people to be the ONLY workable system.
Why would bartering be ineffective compared to money/currency?
We've seen SF officers bartering on more than one occasion (essentially directly exchanging technology for resources and vice versa).
I always viewed the Barzan wormhole situation as such that the Federation offered technology or specific resources the Barzans needed or wanted.
The Feds have ample diplomatic ties with most species in the AQ and minor players such as the Barzans would likely provide them with the information on the resources they find most useful.
It would then be a simple matter to replicate or track down rich deposits of a resource or create specific technology to make the exchange.
As for Quarks...
Ds9 may have been slightly boring from my perspective but it also stated that Humans don't use money.
The problem was when Jake specifically mentioned it, he had his eyes set on something that he couldn't really get without getting some kind of currency (or in this case gold-pressed latinum) - and keep in mind that this was basically the ONLY time Jake used latinum to get something (and it was for his father).
Quark, being the 'good little Ferengi' he is, is reaping all the benefits of keeping his bar on the station (which is administered by StarFleet) without giving anything back...
SF officers on DS9 are probably allocated a certain amount of gold pressed latinum so they can enjoy their extra leisure time at Quarks if they wish (who runs the bar using capitalist based system and 'currency'), but all other replicator uses and probably the holodecks Quark doesn't 'charge' them.
Since the Federation is based on freedom, they probably allow Quark to run his 'business' the way he chooses.
Incidentally, the Bajorans were the 'owners' of DS9, and they still used a currency based system to my knowledge (though if I'm not mistaken, there have been numerous instances when SF officers got various goods from Bajorans on DS9 without giving any kind of 'currency').
It stands to reason that the Feds might only use currency to do 'business' with races that have such a system in place.
And most of the time, we've seen the Feds exchanging (bartering) resources to get what they want... even if the race in question had a currency based economy.
Bartering was seen in practically all 'transactions'.
Even Voyager confirmed that money doesn't exist in the Federation.
Also, replicators and transporters didn't eliminate currency or need for material wealth.
Remember episode 'Dark Frontier'?
"Well, after the new world economy took shape in the late 22nd century and money went the way of the dinosaur... Fort Nox was turned into a museum".
Keep in mind that Paris gave a specific time frame when this took place... he mentioned the late 22nd century. So this would have probably happened when the Federation was created (and humans in the Trek universe eliminated poverty, diseases and wars in the 50 years that ensued after First Contact in 2063).
Why do you people superimpose current based society/system onto the Federation which is set in the future and clearly operates in a different way?
Even current day humans (yes, real life, as in early 21st century and this space-time continuum) with consumer grade technology could have created a system where money doesn't exist and all material needs of everyone are met (decades ago at that).
The will to do so on the other hand is virtually non-existent (at least from those in positions of power, because 'equality' would compromise their positions - better to keep most of the population under a tight leash and docile).
Most of the 'problems' people keep putting forth are idiotic excuses and they apparently have no idea of the actual state of affairs or just how their 'prized' Capitalism is tightly controlling everything. The media and mainstream science are jokes.
If people are so naive to take everything at face value without questioning anything (even aspects that were well established), then it's no wonder most of the world behaves like a flock of sheep and that the world is in a situation that it is today.
Oh right... because you are viewing things from your own limited perception of the early 21st century in which capitalism was droned into the skulls of most people to be the ONLY workable system.
Why would bartering be ineffective compared to money/currency?
We've seen SF officers bartering on more than one occasion (essentially directly exchanging technology for resources and vice versa).
I always viewed the Barzan wormhole situation as such that the Federation offered technology or specific resources the Barzans needed or wanted.
The Feds have ample diplomatic ties with most species in the AQ and minor players such as the Barzans would likely provide them with the information on the resources they find most useful.
It would then be a simple matter to replicate or track down rich deposits of a resource or create specific technology to make the exchange.
As for Quarks...
Ds9 may have been slightly boring from my perspective but it also stated that Humans don't use money.
The problem was when Jake specifically mentioned it, he had his eyes set on something that he couldn't really get without getting some kind of currency (or in this case gold-pressed latinum) - and keep in mind that this was basically the ONLY time Jake used latinum to get something (and it was for his father).
Quark, being the 'good little Ferengi' he is, is reaping all the benefits of keeping his bar on the station (which is administered by StarFleet) without giving anything back...
SF officers on DS9 are probably allocated a certain amount of gold pressed latinum so they can enjoy their extra leisure time at Quarks if they wish (who runs the bar using capitalist based system and 'currency'), but all other replicator uses and probably the holodecks Quark doesn't 'charge' them.
Since the Federation is based on freedom, they probably allow Quark to run his 'business' the way he chooses.
Incidentally, the Bajorans were the 'owners' of DS9, and they still used a currency based system to my knowledge (though if I'm not mistaken, there have been numerous instances when SF officers got various goods from Bajorans on DS9 without giving any kind of 'currency').
It stands to reason that the Feds might only use currency to do 'business' with races that have such a system in place.
And most of the time, we've seen the Feds exchanging (bartering) resources to get what they want... even if the race in question had a currency based economy.
Bartering was seen in practically all 'transactions'.
Even Voyager confirmed that money doesn't exist in the Federation.
Also, replicators and transporters didn't eliminate currency or need for material wealth.
Remember episode 'Dark Frontier'?
"Well, after the new world economy took shape in the late 22nd century and money went the way of the dinosaur... Fort Nox was turned into a museum".
Keep in mind that Paris gave a specific time frame when this took place... he mentioned the late 22nd century. So this would have probably happened when the Federation was created (and humans in the Trek universe eliminated poverty, diseases and wars in the 50 years that ensued after First Contact in 2063).
Why do you people superimpose current based society/system onto the Federation which is set in the future and clearly operates in a different way?
Even current day humans (yes, real life, as in early 21st century and this space-time continuum) with consumer grade technology could have created a system where money doesn't exist and all material needs of everyone are met (decades ago at that).
The will to do so on the other hand is virtually non-existent (at least from those in positions of power, because 'equality' would compromise their positions - better to keep most of the population under a tight leash and docile).
Most of the 'problems' people keep putting forth are idiotic excuses and they apparently have no idea of the actual state of affairs or just how their 'prized' Capitalism is tightly controlling everything. The media and mainstream science are jokes.
If people are so naive to take everything at face value without questioning anything (even aspects that were well established), then it's no wonder most of the world behaves like a flock of sheep and that the world is in a situation that it is today.
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Because it's been tried before and it didn't work, and because currency/money is actually a more efficient way to organize an economy than bartering.
I think capitalism is evil, actually, and democratic socialism far preferable. But I also acknowledge that some resources will always be scarce, even if poverty is abolished, and that thus there will always need to be an objective medium of exchange (since, again, bartering is a terribly inefficient medium of trade).
Okay, let's say that you're a shoe-maker, and you need to buy an umbrella. Only the umbrella-maker doesn't need any shoes, he needs pencils. So you go to the pencil-maker, and you exchange a certain number of shoes for a certain number of pencils, and then you take those pencils and give them to the umbrella-maker in exchange for an umbrella. And that's on a good day, when it turns out that you only have to get one removed from your goal; goodness help you if the pencil-maker has all the shoes he needs but really needs books instead.
Now, let's say you're a shoe-maker, and you need an umbrella. So you take your five bucks and buy the umbrella.
See how much more efficient that is?
And it also stated that they do. Like I said, plenty of contradictions in the Trek canon.
Quark paid rent, actually. And Deep Space 9 was Bajoran territory; Starfleet administered it as a starbase with the permission of the Bajoran government, but it was not actually a Federation station.
So why's there a Bank of Bolius, then? Why'd Scotty buy a boat in ST6? Why did Bashir's father's shuttle business fail, if it had no operating expenses and needed no income? Why did Quark have to buy passage from Earth to DS9 at the end of "Little Green Men?" Why was Spock referred to as having had a lot of money invested in his training by Starfleet? Why did Kirk say Scotty had earned his week's pay? Why were college students referred to as "starving" in "The Survivors?" Why'd Cyrano Jones charge money for tribbles? Why'd a Vulcan merchant up the price on his merchandise when he saw that Janeway and Tuvok were Starfleet officers?
Because abstract metrics of value are inherently necessary to distribute wealth, even if the economy exists in such a state of abundance that the resources needed to live a healthy lifestyle in security are so plentiful that poverty has been eliminated.
Having money does not inherently mean having capitalism, or classism, or poverty, or greed.
Within the Federation it might be something as simple. Planet A has resource than Planet B needs, Planet B has a resource than Planet C needs, coversley Planet C has a resource that PLanet A needs. So they agree to mutually exchange these for the better meant of each other. Naturally there'll be some resources that the Federation doesn't need, which are used to barter with races that use them in exchange for goods/service.
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