The Federation not having any money

[Destructor]

Er, to the people who are saying that the Federation can't deal with cultures that have money without having a monetary system of it's own: Why would Federation currency have ANY value to a culture with a different monetary system? Money is only as useful as what it can get you. In a future where they are replicators, only non-replicable materiel would have any value whatsoever.

 

[Sci]

Er, to the people who are saying that the Federation can't deal with cultures that have money without having a monetary system of it's own: Why would Federation currency have ANY value to a culture with a different monetary system?

Why would a Mexican peso have any value to a Briton? Why would a British pound-sterling have any value to an Israeli? Why would an Israeli shekel have any value to an American?

There are these things called "exchange rates" that tend to get worked out.

In a future where they are replicators, only non-replicable materiel would have any value whatsoever.

If you're trading in commodities, sure. Meanwhile, most money nowadays is a fiat currency that's not backed up by any physical material anyway, so your point is moot. And that's to say nothing of the fact that labor would continue to have value, and so would the possession of engineering skills, and so would the materials that are used to feed matter to replicators for them to convert into food or whatever, and so would rare materials that can't be replicated, and so would the dilithium needed to generate energy, and so would real estate, and so would transportation, and so would education, and so would....

Ending poverty is plausible. Ending class is plausible. Ending money is not plausible. There has to be a way to distribute wealth, and there has to be a way to do so that is more efficient than bargaining.

 

[Deks]

Why are most of you assuming that an economy without money/currency cannot exist?

Because it's been tried before and it didn't work, and because currency/money is actually a more efficient way to organize an economy than bartering.

There are many factors to take into account as to why it 'didn't work'.
One of those reasons is that majority of those who didn't employ such a system wanted it to fail.

I think capitalism is evil, actually, and democratic socialism far preferable. But I also acknowledge that some resources will always be scarce, even if poverty is abolished, and that thus there will always need to be an objective medium of exchange (since, again, bartering is a terribly inefficient medium of trade).

Scarcity of resources isn't the issue for humanity at our present stage of development. We've already developed means decades ago to be self-sufficient without accessing new resources.
The system, media and mainstream science not admitting it though is another matter (the system for one thing is ineffective, and media and mainstream science are a joke).

Okay, let's say that you're a shoe-maker, and you need to buy an umbrella. Only the umbrella-maker doesn't need any shoes, he needs pencils. So you go to the pencil-maker, and you exchange a certain number of shoes for a certain number of pencils, and then you take those pencils and give them to the umbrella-maker in exchange for an umbrella. And that's on a good day, when it turns out that you only have to get one removed from your goal; goodness help you if the pencil-maker has all the shoes he needs but really needs books instead.

Now, let's say you're a shoe-maker, and you need an umbrella. So you take your five bucks and buy the umbrella.

See how much more efficient that is?

Except that in the Federation (or perhaps even in real life) where you do have a proper system in place, a shoe maker's work is likely acknowledged and his creations are distributed by other people in the system which in turn provides the shoe-maker with what he needs.
You are essentially using one person analogy without a proper distributional system in place.

And it also stated that they do. Like I said, plenty of contradictions in the Trek canon.

Actually, DS9 did NOT mention that humans use money.
We have only seen SF officers exchanging currency with races that use it ... and DS9 was among other things something not entirely based on Gene Roddenberry's ideas/visions of the future in the first place because the producers of the show felt it wasn't 'realistic' (I begged to differ - because they could have made numerous things work with the pre-established aspects... their lack of creativity to pull it off on the other hand was a different matter -in my opinion of course).

Quark paid rent, actually. And Deep Space 9 was Bajoran territory; Starfleet administered it as a starbase with the permission of the Bajoran government, but it was not actually a Federation station.

To whom did Quark paid rent exactly?
I remember Sisko mentioning to Quark in one of the episodes that he was basically running his establishment for free (when Quark did something to cross him)... and when Sisko started mentioning just what it would be like for Quark if he HAD to reimburse the Federation with something (in his case, Sisko used Ferengi's own system of gold-pressed latinum to make the point after which Quark backed off).
And I already acknowledged that Ds9 was administered by SF, but was actually a Bajoran station.

So why's there a Bank of Bolius, then? Why'd Scotty buy a boat in ST6? Why did Bashir's father's shuttle business fail, if it had no operating expenses and needed no income? Why did Quark have to buy passage from Earth to DS9 at the end of "Little Green Men?" Why was Spock referred to as having had a lot of money invested in his training by Starfleet? Why did Kirk say Scotty had earned his week's pay? Why were college students referred to as "starving" in "The Survivors?" Why'd Cyrano Jones charge money for tribbles? Why'd a Vulcan merchant up the price on his merchandise when he saw that Janeway and Tuvok were Starfleet officers?

Bank of Bolius?
Were the Bolians even Federation members?
I don't think it was stated that they were.
As for Scotty's remarks for 'buying a boat' in ST VI... we've heard SF officers using various antiquated terms to make a point across, and Scotty mentioned that in a joking capacity if anything else.
Quark having to pay for his journey from Earth to Ds9 in 'little green men'?
Lol... he's a devout Ferengi... of course that he will say something like that (doesn't mean he used money for it... he could have traded technology or resources he had for the passage - or he could have used other means of transport that didn't require reimbursment of any kind... bottom line is, we don't know he actually did what he said).
Why was it mentioned that SF had a lot of money invested into Spock's training? Easily explained away as a figure of speech (much like when Kirk said to Scotty 'you just earned your pay for the week' - a figure of speech which also implies that it was a job well done). College students in The survivors stated they were starving?
Dramatically making a point across to embellish a story of how the 'two lovebirds met'. The starvation bid doesn't make any logical sense for a Federation colony (which probably had access to all kinds of technologies - or, it's possible that specific groups of people didn't want to use the technologies that were readily available -which we've seen before).
Cyrano Jones charging money for tribbles... easy... not all humans were living under the moneyless system in the Federation - besides, he was a trader, and he might have had other plans in mind for his lifestyle which could have been situated in another part of space occupied by races that used money.
Why'd a Vulcan merchant up the price on his merchandise when he saw that Janeway and Tuvok were Starfleet officers?
We don't even know if Tuvok and Janeway were inside Federation space at the time, or if the Vulcan merchant in question was situated inside a Federation space. He could have been situated in a system with a race or races that predominantly used money.

Because abstract metrics of value are inherently necessary to distribute wealth, even if the economy exists in such a state of abundance that the resources needed to live a healthy lifestyle in security are so plentiful that poverty has been eliminated.

Having money does not inherently mean having capitalism, or classism, or poverty, or greed.

The Federation probably has other means of determining values of resources or technologies that would be adequate for getting something equal or more valuable.
One man's trash is another man's treasure.
For example, Voyager traded 130 isolinear chips for an Isokinetic cannon and it's installation.

Trek is a prime example where a certain resource which is in abundance in the Federation or easily replicable can be exchanged for another resource that they might require.

Having money has ALWAYS been associated with capitalism, classism, poverty and greed.
That's how it worked in practice since it's invention (even though on paper as a concept it was different).
In short, it's a great tool for promoting those aspects in individuals who are very prone to them and like being in power.

Do NOT superimpose 21st century perceptions and way of life onto the 24th century which inherently rejected most of them by the late 22nd century because you end up with an incorrect perception of the era you are observing.
Prime example of this was 'The Neutral Zone' when 3 people were taken out of cryo-stasis and most, if not all of their preconceived notions of how 24th century society worked were essentially shattered (this particularly applied to the businessman).

I will agree that contradictions exist, but these are mostly due to poor writing. The basic premise on the other hand (what Roddenbery had in mind) sticks for the most part and is repeated many times over than it is contradicted.

 

[Arpy]

Uh, barter did work. For millennia. As did stealing before it. Money works today. In the future, if we're there to make it happen, something better may be invented.

 

[T'Girl]

Bank of Bolius?
Were the Bolians even Federation members?
I don't think it was stated that they were.

It's stated in the DS9 episode "The Forsaken" that Bolarus Nine is a member of the United Federation of Planets.

According to the Star Trek Encyclopedia, the Bank of Bolias is an interstellar financial institution. The Star Trek Encyclopedia was compiled by the show's production staff and is officially recognized by CBS Television Studios.

In the episode Honor Among Thieves (DS9), the Orion Syndicate (assisted by Miles O'Brien) robs (or attempts to rob?) the Bank of Bolias. Deks, you'd have to stretch things pretty far to say that they weren't stealing money in some form or another.

 

[Deks]

The Star Trek Encyclopedia is not canon though, and despite it's function as an 'interstellar financial institution' it doesn't automatically mean they had money stored there.
Also in the episode 'Honour among thieves' it wasn't stated what was robbed. Just that they transferred data. It's possible someone had important information stored there for example or something else.
Not necessarily currency.

Nowhere in the episode 'The Forsaken' is it mentioned that Bolarus Nine is a member of UFP.
I've just looked over the transcript for the episode.
The Bolian in the episode served as a Federation ambassador... but that doesn't mean Bolians are a part of UFP.
If anything it could mean that their species has the right to live and work anywhere within the Federation and achieve high ranking positions (given the premise that the Federation is based on equality and freedom, this isn't a stretch by any means - and Bolarus could have various agreements with the Federation but not necessarily be a member planet).
Other species that weren't part of the UFP had individuals serving in SF or in other positions throughout the Federation.
Neelix was made Voyager's ambassador, and the last time I checked, the Talaxians aren't part of the UFP.

Even if Bolarus was part of UFP, it's possible that the bank of Bolius as an establishment doesn't operate specifically within the Federation economical system, but rather outside of it and is not applicable for living or acquiring anything inside the Federation economical system - or if it's even used for storing currency of any kind.

Earth also has Fort Nox for example (it was turned into a museum per Tom Paris), and a couple of Ferengi tried to rob it (unsuccessfully)... who knows what was stored inside of it.
Same goes for the bank of bolius.
Do we know what was stored there?
It might not have been money/currency, but material aspects that are associated with 'great value' (even today, banks do have this option).

As i said, there are other explanations to take into account.

 

[Timo]

Perhaps we're spending too much time worrying about the concept of "money" here when we could be dissecting "economy" instead?

The real world offers plenty of examples of economies where certain players have no money. Say, at a school, the teachers have to be paid, the janitors have to be paid, the food and the books have to be bought, the building heating paid - but the pupils don't have to be paid anything, nor do they have to pay anything. (Hereabouts, the state pays for everything, from lessons to books to meals, but in other places we can argue the parents do the paying.) At school, there exists a group that has no use for money. (Except when a use is artificially created, such as by installing a vending machine, or by charging daily extra for meals.)

Yet the pupils are in many ways the most important demographic group at a school, and the driving force behind the school economy. It's just that the particular economy works just fine without any sort of monetary input or output from them.

It doesn't appear too difficult to assume that the UFP has chosen to treat the consumer as the demographic group that the economy can survive without. What use would anybody have for the pennies these people spend on food, housing, clothing and luxury items, when the cost of the simplest starship probably is gadzillionfold the total consumer market of the Eurasian continent? It would be like a major IT corporation today keeping afloat by charging its visitors for the peanuts on offer at the company lobby.

Eliminating the consumer goes hand in hand with the providing of the free lunch - a common occurrence at schools today, and a worldwide (or indeed much wider) occurrence in the replicator society of the 24th century. It may literally be that the UFP consumer has no access to money of any sort, and certainly no means of telling how much of it he or she possesses, or how it moves, or what is being done with it. There is no need for him or her to know such things in order to survive in the UFP.

The second step is eliminating the worker. Today, a nation of tens or hundreds of millions of citizens has to bribe those people to do the necessary work. But there is nothing to establish that another nation at another time couldn't survive by bribing just a teeny weeny fraction of its populance into working. Much of the work today is make-work anyway, created to keep up the demand for further work. It would get done even without bribing dedicated specialists to do it, or it would go undone and un-missed.

If we can accept a society where a lower percentage of population takes care of a higher percentage, it's a trivial step to jump to a society where the low percentage can be chosen from among those who would work for free. That percentage would be on the rise in a society where basic needs are taken care of!

Basically, then, we could take the economy of today, and eliminate the consumer and the worker. What's left will still run on money - it's just that the money streams can be completely automated and kept off the hands of the people.

This is more or less what we see in Star Trek. Nations still trade, major acquisitions still come with a price, but the consumer consumes without needing to work for it, and conversely works without expecting to be paid for it.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Deks]

Why the need to even bribe the small % of people who are essentially maintaining the society?
It was said the very mentality of humans has changed.
They are working for betterment of mankind. It's therefore reasonable that in such a society you will find individuals working on all kinds of jobs, even 'menial' ones (you have such individuals today as well) on their own accord.
I would surmise that individuals who work in specific positions that are say required for maintaining the society, they probably work there in the first place because they love their jobs.
In a society as vast as the Federation where people are encouraged to pursue their own interests, you will probably find more than enough engineers who would jump at the chance at working at a waste management system for example, or they basically tell people that they first have to start low and slowly 'move upwards' - the room for advancement is there and accessible to everyone.

Rom wanted to be an engineer, and yes, while was given a 'menial duty', I would surmise that most low ranking individuals in SF go through the same thing so they can acquire experience to work in better positions.
Why would they need to be bribed to work there if they know that this is one of the ways to get to better positions?
And either way, they WILL be doing what they were trained to do.

 

[Cyke101]

I'm going to echo bits of sentiment that Timo, C.E. Evans, and Sci have expressed. If we recall proper history, it wasn't that long ago when the notion of money was redefined. The invention of checks, stocks, bonds, and (most importantly) credit over 160 years ago completely changed how people thought about economy and the very notion of currency itself, from something tangible to something imaginary. It spurred Karl Marx into action to speak about the consumer, and helped determine how distribution of resources would play a vital role in the US civil war. But those factors came about because of fundamental changes to economy that quickly swept the western world.

The impact of this change was so great that it became a driving plot point in many Victorian era novels, notably Dickens. If that happened on Earth 160 years ago, who knows what can happen to the quadrant within the next 400 years? (Answer: the Vulcans did it.) So it could very well be that money as we know it doesn't exist, but there's still a form of currency, exchange, and economy present. We also know that material value hasn't been eliminated (Picard's archaeology, Sisko's baseball, etc), but perhaps it's not a priority anymore.

 

[T'Girl]

I just chalk it up that physical money doesn't exist in the Federation and leave it at that.

This.

I've just looked over the transcript for the episode ...

The transcripts (incidentally at the very beginning) speaks of "a delegation of Federation ambassadors," not allied ambassadors, or foreign ambassadors, or Klingon ambassadors, or Romulan ambassadors. When we've seen "Federation ambassadors" before they were people like Sarek, Spock and Lwaxana Troi (who is also in this episode). These "Federation ambassadors" were from "Federation member worlds."

The Bolian in the episode served as a Federation ambassador... but that doesn't mean Bolians are a part of UFP.

Yeah, it kind of does.

Also in the episode 'Honour among thieves' it wasn't stated what was robbed. Just that they transferred data ... [snip] ... or if it's even used for storing currency of any kind.

Money can exist solely as data. In America only about nine percent of our money is "currency" (bills and coins). The rest is in the form of data or information in computers, it has no physical existence.

Earth also has Fort Nox

It's Fort Knox.

Neelix was made Voyager's ambassador, and the last time I checked, the Talaxians aren't part of the UFP.

I doubt that Captain Janeway has the authority to create a Federation ambassador, the title was honorary, and Neelix's position was at best a representative of the ship only.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Picard ... further elaborates that the desire for material possessions has ceased being the driving factor for Humanity.

When Picard said "we." Just how big a group was he referring to? The entire Federation, with hundreds of member worlds, thousands of colonies, maybe eight hundred billion to a trillion people? Most likely not, the Federation is a massive, diverse, multi-species, multi-cultural assemblage. The idea that they would all have the same economic and social system is unimaginable. We've seen non-Human members of the Federation, can you name an ocassion of any of them making direct references to "No Money?"

All of Humanity then? Again probably not, there are enough examples of commerce, capitalism, businesses, property, in the various series and movies to show that isn't the case either. These things run counter to the economics and social order advocated by Picard.

Some Humans do apparently practice the no money and the seek to better ourselves belief. Picard says it twice and Jake Sisko does says it once quite clearly. So at least some portion of Humanity embraces this philosophy.

But what about others? In Unification when a piano player solicit a currency bribe, Riker responds with "I don't carry money." Riker didn't say, "Honey, money no longer exists."

In the TVH , after witnessing a woman purchasing a paper from a vending machine, Kirk said "They're still using money, Kirk didn't say "My God, they're still paying for things." Kirk was commenting on the woman's use of physical coins.

Joseph Sisko operate a "restaurant," A place where people pay to eat meals, a commercial establishment.

Kassidy Yates gets a job with the Bajoran Ministry of Commerce to captain one of their freighters. Bajorian money is referred to as the Lita. This is what Kassidy would have been paid in.

 

[Timo]

But what about others? In Unification when a piano player solicit a currency bribe, Riker responds with "I don't carry money." Riker didn't say, "Honey, money no longer exists."

So it does exist for that person. However, it is rather unlikely that the pianist would have been a UFP citizen. She was married to a criminal gunned down by Riker; she openly pushed "sucksalt" to a person wearing a Starfleet uniform; she played at a joint frequented by a Ferengi, a joint that Starfleeters according to her aren't supposed to visit.

In the TVH , after witnessing a woman purchasing a paper from a vending machine, Kirk said "They're still using money, Kirk didn't say "My God, they're still paying for things." Kirk was commenting on the woman's use of physical coins.

However, the use of physical money was how Kirk could tell that money in general was still being used. So "using money" could quite well be Kirk's way of saying "paying for things", rather than a more specific comment on physical currency.

Joseph Sisko operate a "restaurant," A place where people pay to eat meals, a commercial establishment.

Interestingly, we never see anybody pay. We never hear anybody pay, either.

Nobody pays at the Replimat, either. Might be because there's no money in consumer hands. Or might be because food is free, and it's criminal to try and charge for it within the UFP. Criminal, or futile, like trying to charge for breathing air when you aren't running a SCUBA shop.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[T'Girl]

Riker didn't say, "Honey, money no longer exists."

it is rather unlikely that the pianist would have been a UFP citizen.

There was a starfleet depot in orbit around the planet, suggesting that the planet itself was part of the Federation.

Joseph Sisko operate a "restaurant," A place where people pay to eat meals, a commercial establishment.

Interestingly, we never see anybody pay. We never hear anybody pay, either.

In the trouble With tribbles, Uhura (before it was gifted to her) intended to purchase a tribble with credits. But what credits? Her uniform possessed no pockets, and she wasn't carrying or wearing a purse. But again she was going to buy the tribble and she earlier stated she was on the station to do some shopping. The bar was obviously a commercial bar, yet we don't see Scotty's party paying for their drinks.

So payment is going on, but in a fashion that doesn't involve the exchange of currency.

Most people would agree that Quark is also getting paid for food, drinks and holodeck use, but we only occasionally see strips and bars changing hands.

Uhura (IMHO) was going to pay in a similar fashion to how Crusher paid for the bolt of cloth in the TNG pilot, by money being transferred out of her account. Scotty would pay for his drinks the same way.

I've told this story before, when I would buy my morning coffee at a coffee shop, instead of handing over currency or using a card, I would pass my charm bracelet near a scanner and pay that way. The bracelet included a debit card fob, as long as it was within a foot or so, payment was made.

Payment in the 23rd/24th centuries might be through DNA or some other form of identifier.

Thee is a Klingon eatery on DS9, we know through the episode House of Quark, that Klingon have a monetary economic system. He would likely wish to be paid (Klingon money / credits), or he would kill you

Nobody pays at the Replimat

While never stated they do ... it's also never stated they don't, simply ordering the food could result in a payment transfer being moved out of your "account" (a Beverly would call it).

 

[Timo]

There was a starfleet depot in orbit around the planet, suggesting that the planet itsef was part of the Federation.

What planet?

You seem to assume it was Qualor II, but this is never stated or otherwise indicated. And Starfleet probably would establish its depot far away from inhabited planets, especially ones frequented by riffraff.

Her uniform possessed no pockets

...But both TOS and TNG uniforms still seem to sprout those as needed.

Uhura (IMHO) was going to pay in a similar fashion to how Crusher paid for the bolt of cloth in the TNG pilot, by money being transferred out of her account. Scotty would pay for his drinks the same way.

Probably also of interest is TNG "Allegiance" where the fake Picard orders drinks for everybody at Ten-Forward. The gesture would be rather meaningless, or indeed a repulsive order to "gulp down a drink or else", unless this meant Picard paying the bills of the crew.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[T'Girl]

the planet itself was part of the Federation.

You seem to assume it was Qualor II, but this is never stated or otherwise indicated.

First Officer's log, stardate 45240.6. The Enterprise is nearing Qualor Two, home of a Federation surplus depot operated by the Zakdorn.

First Officer's log, stardate 45245.8. The Enterprise remains at Qualor Two as we continue to investigate the theft of a surplus Vulcan ship. The trail has led us to the former wife of a deceased smuggler.

The deceased smuggler's ex-wife is the multi-armed piano player in the piano bar. Worf is "staking-out" the bar when the Ferengi they are look for shows up, Worf calls Riker on the Enterprise, Riker walks in shortly later.

The Enterprise is in orbit of Qualor Two.

Her uniform possessed no pockets

...But both TOS and TNG uniforms still seem to sprout those as needed.

When did a TOS miniskirt dress ever "sprout pockets?"

 

[Timo]

The Enterprise is in orbit of Qualor Two.

And Riker has left the ship in pursuit of the widow. Hence, Riker is not at Qualor II unless otherwise indicated.

Okay, he may be there. But in bribing the widow, he indicates he can spend days if not weeks pursuing the lead if it pans out. When the Ferengi ultimately arrives, days may indeed have passed, and Riker may have summoned the ship to this new location (as there are no establishing shots to the contrary).

If Riker did have his starship up there in orbit, would he be lacking in cash, baubles or red roses? Or did his poker skills tell him that a touch of jazz would be the right way to proceed regardless of what the widow indicated she wanted?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Jono]

I've just looked over the transcript for the episode ...

The transcripts (incidentally at the very beginning) speaks of "a delegation of Federation ambassadors," not allied ambassadors, or foreign ambassadors, or Klingon ambassadors, or Romulan ambassadors. When we've seen "Federation ambassadors" before they were people like Sarek, Spock and Lwaxana Troi (who is also in this episode). These "Federation ambassadors" were from "Federation member worlds."

The Bolian in the episode served as a Federation ambassador... but that doesn't mean Bolians are a part of UFP.

Yeah, it kind of does.

In itself, no it doesn't. Unless he was referred to as the Bolius Ambassador in the episode (was he?), all it means is that there is a Federation Ambassador who happens to be a Bolian.

Even today countries have ambassadors and government ministers who were not born in that country representing them. For example Australia, Julia Gillard, our PM was born in Wales. So just because the Federation has a Bolian as an ambassador doesn't mean the Bolian homeworld is a member, it just means that individual is a Federation citizen and eligible to hold the post.

A good example of this is Worf, he served in the Federations military and even became an ambassador, but that doesn't mean that the Klingons or Qo'noS are members of the Federation purely because he happens to be a Klingon.

That said I do think the intention of the writers is that the Bolian ambassador represented his world, which means it is a Fed member.

 

[Timo]

Another interesting angle here is the identification of Sarek as the "Vulcan Ambassador". Does that mean Sarek is

a) representing Vulcan to an unknown party (say, the UFP), or
b) a native of Vulcan, representing an unknown party (say, the UFP) to other parties?

Considering how secretive the Vulcans tended to be in Sarek's heyday, it's quite possible that him being a native of Vulcan earned him a really special distinction among UFP Ambassadors, one that would not have been mirrored in things like Andorian Ambassador or Human Ambassador or Bald Ambassador or Angry Ambassador. In the movies, we never did see Sarek representing Vulcan's interests to the Federation, just Federation interests - but in "Journey to Babel", the Vulcan Ambassador seemed to speak with the voice of Vulcan against other UFP voices.

To speculate, he might well have been on a fact-finding mission, rather than on a mission to deliver Vulcan's formal vote - he just had a good idea on (and probably considerable influence over) what that vote would be. Whether the vote would be given at Babel, or given after Babel had sorted out how everybody would vote, was left unclear. The organization making the ultimate decision was called the "Interplanetary Conference"; both the fact that it is merely interplanetary and the use of the word "conference" suggest this is some sort of ad hoc thing specific to the crisis, rather than part of the standard high level UFP governmental decisionmaking process.

The Bolian Ambassador might have been representing his world in like manner, as he clearly was fact-finding on DS9; perhaps this is one of the chief duties of the Ambassadors of UFP member worlds. It's less likely that he was famed for being Bolian, considering the great numbers of that species seen in UFP service everywhere.

Whether this has something to do with Bolians being UFP members or not is unclear. It probably has even less to do with them using money - after all, in the TNG era, Janeway said she bought an item from a Vulcan at a price, and in the TOS one, Spock pretended to be a Vulcan merchant, suggesting that Vulcans have their own monetary system that does involve the consumer.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Deks]

I just chalk it up that physical money doesn't exist in the Federation and leave it at that.

This.

The transcripts (incidentally at the very beginning) speaks of "a delegation of Federation ambassadors," not allied ambassadors, or foreign ambassadors, or Klingon ambassadors, or Romulan ambassadors. When we've seen "Federation ambassadors" before they were people like Sarek, Spock and Lwaxana Troi (who is also in this episode). These "Federation ambassadors" were from "Federation member worlds."

You are ASSUMING they were from Federation member worlds.
That assumption alone isn't proof.
Nor can you draw conclusions from something that 'might' have been implied (especially when it can be interpreted in another capacity).

Yeah, it kind of does.

Again, it DOESN'T mean the Bolians were part of the UFP.
We had other races who had high ranking positions in the Federation but were NOT members of the Federation.

Money can exist solely as data. In America only about nine percent of our money is "currency" (bills and coins). The rest is in the form of data or information in computers, it has no physical existence.

It doesn't matter.
Point remains it was never determined that 'money' or 'currency' of any kind was stolen.
You (again) are making an assumption colored by your own preconceived notions.

It's Fort Knox.

I stand corrected.

I doubt that Captain Janeway has the authority to create a Federation ambassador, the title was honorary, and Neelix's position was at best a representative of the ship only.

Let's clear something up (and I don't mean to sound disrespectful): your personal perception of things doesn't exactly count here as Janeway DID make Neelix an ambassador.
Even though the position might have been honorary at first, it was later on established that he was an ambassador and was initiating first contact with other aliens.
Even Janeway stated in the episode 'Homestead' (the one where Neelix left the ship) that SF could use a permanent ambassador in the Delta Quadrant.
So, it would appear, that even SF recognized him as an ambassador.
And last but not least, even in the game (which isn't canon) DS9: Harbinger, Sisko made an ambassador out of the envoy Bannik (the main character).

---------------------------------------------------------------

Picard ... further elaborates that the desire for material possessions has ceased being the driving factor for Humanity.

When Picard said "we." Just how big a group was he referring to? The entire Federation, with hundreds of member worlds, thousands of colonies, maybe eight hundred billion to a trillion people? Most likely not, the Federation is a massive, diverse, multi-species, multi-cultural assemblage. The idea that they would all have the same economic and social system is unimaginable. We've seen non-Human members of the Federation, can you name an ocassion of any of them making direct references to "No Money?"
[/quote]

Spock (a Vulcan) seemed to have been equally surprised by Humans using money in the late 20th century (TVH movie) just as Kirk was.
While I cannot say specifically Picard meant EVERYONE... I think that his argument might (but also might not) imply (majority of) Humans first and foremost.
This on the other hand was extended to include the entire Federation.

All of Humanity then? Again probably not, there are enough examples of commerce, capitalism, businesses, property, in the various series and movies to show that isn't the case either. These things run counter to the economics and social order advocated by Picard.

Majority of Humanity most likely (probably those who lived in the Federation under it's economic system).
Those Humans that chose to work outside of it apparently picked professions where they had to use money.

Some Humans do apparently practice the no money and the seek to better ourselves belief. Picard says it twice and Jake Sisko does says it once quite clearly. So at least some portion of Humanity embraces this philosophy.

While probably not ALL of them, majority most likely do.
Those who don't, probably live outside of the money-less system.

But what about others? In Unification when a piano player solicit a currency bribe, Riker responds with "I don't carry money." Riker didn't say, "Honey, money no longer exists."

Which proves just what exactly?
Riker's answer could be self-explanatory enough in a sense to be interpreted that for him and majority of Humans, money doesn't exist.
The piano player likely lived outside of the Federation and might not have been aware of it not using money.
Or she was and expected Riker to know.

In the TVH , after witnessing a woman purchasing a paper from a vending machine, Kirk said "They're still using money, Kirk didn't say "My God, they're still paying for things." Kirk was commenting on the woman's use of physical coins.

Exactly... which could also mean that in Kirk's time, majority (if not all of things an individual would need) could be easily get for free while in the late 20th century, it's obviously not the case.
Keep in mind that interpretation isn't exclusive to your perception.

Joseph Sisko operate a "restaurant," A place where people pay to eat meals, a commercial establishment.

Lol... this is ridiculous on so many levels that it's not even funny.
Here's why: he's a cook, and could easily cook for people who come into the restaurant to enjoy his food for free. Plus, I would surmise that his 'helpers' are there to either learn the trade, gain experience or just love serving tables.

Kassidy Yates gets a job with the Bajoran Ministry of Commerce to captain one of their freighters. Bajorian money is referred to as the Lita. This is what Kassidy would have been paid in.

And what's your point again here?
She was found assisting Maqui's (outlaws by Federation law at the time) and would probably have most if not all of her privileges taken away to work within SF's jurisdiction (or the Federation's for that matter).
If Kassidy would have been 'paid' anything, she would probably use it where it has value (probably not within the Federation's economical system).
She would likely have to purchase most things from Bajorans and live like that.
She might not have access to the replicators when it comes to free use like other Federation citizens.

 

[T'Girl]

can you name an ocassion of any of them making direct references to "No Money?"

Spock (a Vulcan) seemed to have been equally surprised by Humans using money in the late 20th century (TVH movie) ...

But when did Spock say anything to the effect towards "Money doesn't exist," or "We don't use currency in any form?"

You are ASSUMING they were from Federation member worlds.

Just as you're assuming the opposite.

Again, it DOESN'T mean the Bolians were part of the UFP.
We had other races who had high ranking positions in the Federation but were NOT members of the Federation.

Whom were you thinking of please?

You (again) are making an assumption colored by your own preconceived notions.

I'm making an "assumption" based upon the overt fact that the institution being robbed was a bank.

Majority of Humanity most likely (probably those who lived in the Federation under it's economic system).

Here's one of those assumptions of mine. I assume that because the Federation is so large, and as seen, so diverse, that there is no such thing as a "Federation Economic System." Individual member worlds would have diverse individual economic systems.

While probably not ALL of them, majority most likely do. Those who don't, probably live outside of the money-less system.

Or the opposite holds true, that the relatively few follow the "money-less' system ... meanig they basically spounging off of others in the system who continue to folow the money system.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Trek was always ambivalent on whether it was earth that was money-less or the entire Federation.

Whenever comparing accomplishments to other powers, like being peaceful or not having poverty, the Federation is used as an example, or simply the term, "we".

It's like the original creators stepped a little into it, when they came up with the there is no money part, and had to compensate for that--- by having the characters motivated by money.