The Federation not having any money

[Neutral Zone]

I remenber in the pilot episode of TNG Bev Crusher bought some material on Farpoint and told the market stall holder to send the material to the Enterprise and charge it to her account.

If there is no money in the future Federation states whioch includes Earth, how was the guy at Farpoint going to get paid and with what?

 

[T'Girl]

Another interesting angle here is the identification of Sarek as the "Vulcan Ambassador". Does that mean Sarek is

a) representing Vulcan to an unknown party (say, the UFP), or
b) a native of Vulcan, representing an unknown party (say, the UFP) to other parties?

I think it was different "jobs," at different times in his life. That he was a Vulcan ambassador, from member world Vulcan, to the Federation. Separate from any representative that Vulcan sends to the Federation council. And that he at other times was the ambassador for the Federation to parties outside the Federation. And that at other times still, he might have been a ambassador from Vulcan directly to other member worlds.

And what's your point again here?

My point is that Kassidy, a Human, got a paying job with the Ministry of Commerce, on a world with a "normal" economic system. She was Human making money.

Prior to that, and long before the matter with the maquis, Kassidy, in her own words was "working for the Petarians." Working for someone denotes a job as well. Working for other people means she was making money then as well. No, she never said she was being paid, but working isn't the same as volunteering.

Let me explain something about myself, I think that words have actual meanings. That words like bank, commerce, working for, have certain definitions. When Captain Kirk said he "sold" his house, that means he transferred private ownership in exchange for value/money in some form. When Scotty said he "bought" a boat, that's what happen.

When Crusher charged something to "her" account, that means there was an actual account, in her name, with value in it, and some value was removed to pay for her purchases. Just as Uhura expected to exchange value for her new tribble pet. No difference.

Personally/my opinion, I think that when a Enterprise Dee crewperson walks into ten forward and orders a drink, they have to pay for it. It's deduced from their "account." When Worf obtain a wedding gift out of the replicator for the O'Briens, he (in some fashion) paid for it. Gambling at Quark's comes out of their pockets too. Civilians on Earth pay for their replicator use. Certainly they make the initial purchase of the replicator itself.

Joseph Sisko operate a "restaurant," A place where people pay to eat meals, a commercial establishment.

Lol... this is ridiculous on so many levels that it's not even funny.

If Joseph was just cooking food in his house's kitchen, and having people over for dinner, then what you described would be fine. But his establishment is referred to as a restaurant, not as a private home (there is one upstairs).

Joseph Sisko ran a business. That business being a restaurant.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Well, Picard states that money doesn't exist in the 24th century and further elaborates that the desire for material possessions has ceased being the driving factor for Humanity.

Picard tends to be a narrow-minded prig who dismisses anyone who doesn't think like he does, so I'd take that with a grain of latinum-pressed salt.

I think replicators have created an abundant enough society that nobody needs to participate in a money-driven economy unless they choose to, and only to the degree they want to. Capitalism is a lifestyle choice. We've seen 24th C humans who participate in that lifestyle, such as in the weapons industry. Presumably, they do that because they like it.

 

[Neutral Zone]

They may not go for the money too much in the future, but they still go for the modest gal of universal domination, that way who needs an economy based cash. Someone just drops in your planet and takes anything of worth.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Doesn't make any sense.

If humans evolved beyond want or greed like Picard said, then why get a job--to make money?

Does this mean Kassidy and some other humans are weird throwbacks by Federation standards?

Vash is another example, she was outright greedy and did almost anything for profit.

It's then funny because Trek deliberately ignores the irony of it, and lets it happen as if it were completely normal.

 

[Cyke101]

Doesn't make any sense.

If humans evolved beyond want or greed like Picard said, then why get a job--to make money?

I think it's the right question but I'd like to take it one step further, because frankly people didn't start working for money itself until the aforementioned creation of imaginary money in the 18th and 19th centuries. Before that the priority for work was for community, tradition, and personal ambition, and getting compensated with cash was certainly desired but it wasn't the only motivation. Things like food, shelter, reputation, and influence ranked higher and had more priority than the accumulation of wealth, especially when the vast majority of people weren't cityfolk (ie, what good is money if there are no supplies around?).

Rather, my question would be: why get a job -- is there more to life than money? Probably BUT like you point out, material desire still exists and most people aren't judged for that in the shows. To that point, I'd say Picard erred -- and this is a guy who places the utmost importance on works of literature, art and archaeology, all of which are pretty valuable in almost any sense (oh, and his saddle). And if they're valuable, there has to be some sort of exchange, most likely with currency or cultural capital, for him to hold those items in such high esteem. Forget Vash or Kassidy, Picard's got a treasure trove of his own.

So to sum up: Picard probably messed up to try and impress Lily (and hey, that was a plot point -- Lily called him out for being a false and hypocritical idealist. Bonus points to the writers for having Picard smash his GOLDEN collection of ships in anger and Lily kind of joking almost as if they were toys -- Picard's not as evolved as he thinks he is. I don't think it was an intentional comment by the writers, but I can't help but think about that in this regard).

 

[JRoss]

By the 24th century, various members of the Federation stated that they no longer use money. But that doesn't make a whole lot of sense, if Star fleet officers don't have money, how do they deal with cultures that do use money? For example when the DS9 crew goes to Quark's bar for lunch, I would assume Quark would want them to pay him for the lunch. Also in the TNG episode "The Price" the Federation was bidding on the rights to a wormhole, if they don't have any money, how are they bidding on it?

Consider that their economy is supposed to be perfect compared to ours. They cannot describe it because if they could, then humans today would change their economy to match. It's why they can't say how warp drive works.

 

[Arpy]

^ That's sort of the litmus test. Fans who can entertain the idea that it works even if they don't know how vs. those who think it's impossible because it's what they know. How does warp drive work? How can you accept chronitons and time travel but not a moneyless economic system? We've had them before and we may have them again.

Also, do the Borg use money? Or the Changelings or the Q?

 

[T'Girl]

... the 18th and 19th centuries. Before that the priority for work was ...

1 Timothy 6:10. For the love of money is the root of all evil.

Greed is hardly a modern concept, but the age old simple desire to obtain money as a means to live your life and acquire the basic necessities of life isn't a example of greed.

Picard was lying through his teeth to Stackhouse, people still require food, shelter, clothing ... they need things.

If humans evolved beyond want or greed like Picard said, then why get a job--to make money?

One reason (of many) would be to provide for yourself and your family, as opposed to having someone else do this for you. Personal satisfaction, you did that yourself.

Not everyone want to suck at the teat of the system.

They cannot describe it

How does warp drive work?

See, that's part of the problem, while they made a effort to describe the warp drive (technobabble sure), absolutely no dialog makes even a passing attempt at the no money economy thing.

 

[Arpy]

Yeah they did - you just called it lying. It's telling how this is one of the most controversial ideas in Trek.

And no not money but the love of it is the root of evil. It's sort of irrelevant though given how capable and honorable our heroes typically are - they wouldn't succumb to either temptation. But the reasons for that have less to do with economics I think than education, society, family, and maybe spirituality.

I don't think Steve Jobs balanced his personal check book every week either. Now we've got Bill Gates trying to figure the best way to redistribute 60 billion dollars that would otherwise inefficiently be left to his children.

We've got a system that works to a point today. The Federation's got one that theoretically works better tomorrow - only without the one thing we obsess about.

P.S.: "...sucking at the teat of the system". We don't know how the system works - just because there's no money doesn't mean people don't earn their own way.

Another thing to consider is that they may just be better than us. Perhaps a lot of us living in their century would choose to suck at the teat thinking that's happiness. But I think they've found a new way of living that accounts for man's need to matter and participate in something greater than themselves. But it's like taking wild men and showing them corporations and high finance - it might be in their best interests to learn cooperation and trust, to incorporate and invest, but they know only self-reliance and taking what they can. They're the same as us biologically, but they're socially primitive. And if one or a dozen could make the cognitive leaps, they'd be overrun by all those who couldn't.

So paradise will have to be very patient as we struggle to make each slow scratchy step toward it.

 

[Deks]

Consider that their economy is supposed to be perfect compared to ours. They cannot describe it because if they could, then humans today would change their economy to match. It's why they can't say how warp drive works.

Whoever said their system is 'perfect'?
'Different' (and to my personal liking) would have been better.
And even if they could describe how the system worked, I doubt that humans in real life would change it to match.
Those in positions of power/control wouldn't want that kind of a system in place because for one thing, it 'reeks' of 'equality'.

As for Warp drive.
Solid theories exist on how it could work, but even if they knew how to make it, doesn't mean they WOULD in real life.
Consumer technology is decades behind the actual development.
This is one of the reasons capitalism 'thrives'.
It's point today is to milk consumers of every penny even if they are selling 'outdated' tech with minor revisions as 'new'.
Today, humanity is 'toying' in 'technological obscurity' and isn't even using THAT to it's fullest potential (we could have gotten rid of majority of problems decades ago with technologies at our disposal - let alone ones that were never released).

One of the probable reasons as to why Humans managed to 'advance' so fast after making FC with the Vulcans was because 'the betterment of mankind' factor (and working together).
The point of capitalism isn't 'betterment of mankind' (if it was, moon bases, orbital complexes, flying cars and quantum computers would have been in circulation by now - the tech exists, 'money' is what's keeping it out).
Recycling tech is how old by now?
We could have used it to be self- sustaining for a LONG while on garbage mountains throughout the world.
Need I go on?

As for my replies to T'Girl...

First off, I wasn't making an assumption when stating that "Federation ambassadors" don't automatically mean that they were from UFP member worlds.
I was effectively stating that we had no proof that Bolians were part of the UFP.
It's 'assumed'. I'm merely stating that we cannot make such an assumption especially if nothing in canon directly states it.

Regarding Sisko's restaurant:

The definition of 'business' could have easily changed from today to the late 24th century (or late 22nd century when the New World economy took place).
Besides, Sisko's father could easily be getting something in return (such as materials or nothing related to money of any kind) because he has a restaurant.
Besides, he can still have a restaurant and call it that while inviting people to eat his foods, because he LIKES TO DO IT.
It doesn't mean he was getting paid or receiving money for having a restaurant.

As for Kassidy... there are numerous people who work today and not get paid at all or receive anything in return.
Kassidy could have been getting enough materials and resources to run her freighter, though nothing in monetary reimbursement.
Or she could have been one of those humans who 'prefers' money or currency based economy.
Just because she works within Federation space says nothing... lots of people have the right to pass through Federation territory.

As for Bank of bolius... you are using contemporary terms and definitions and superimposing them into a time frame that could have changed their meaning.
So what if the 'bank' of bolius was robbed.
It doesn't mean it was money that they stole.
It was never said WHAT was stolen, so making an assumption that it's 'money' simply because of one's personal interpretation that a 'bank' means storing 'money', is a bit ludicrous, especially since we are talking about an alien culture, 400 years from now.
Oh yes, I can see where applying current terminology and points of views to THAT can be useful (not).

 

[Cyke101]

... the 18th and 19th centuries. Before that the priority for work was ...

1 Timothy 6:10. For the love of money is the root of all evil.

Greed is hardly a modern concept, but the age old simple desire to obtain money as a means to live your life and acquire the basic necessities of life isn't a example of greed.

I'm not saying greed is a modern concept -- heck, Shakespeare's Shylock was created centuries before the invention of the stock market, and there's always been greedy characters in fiction throughout time -- it's just that the kind of philosophy and thinking that goes into the accumulation of wealth of today wasn't as widespread until after the 18th/19th centuries. To note, there were a lot more stories and novels about the specters of finance in this time period than before, and public discussion spurred thinkers like Karl Marx, his colleagues, and his opponents into action -- all of which reflects the financial revolution of the era. There's an *immense* difference in approach between having imaginary money and actual hard cash, and all the money in the Bible was, y'know, hard cash. No credit, no online banking, no stocks, no speculation, just trading and currency. (and if we're bringing up the Bible, there are a few notable and very wealthy kings and leaders that the Bible doesn't condemn -- because they're honorable leaders of community.God is against greed, not wealth) Even the way the Revolutionary and Civil Wars were fought differently because of supplies, cost issues, and international influence -- all of which require money of some sort -- because of the philosophical shift that came with the financial revolution between wars.

But the overall point is, though: if society's notions of what constitute wealth and economy can change from 150 years ago, there's no telling what those notions or financial philosophy will look like 300 years from now. Having lots of money is one thing, working *only* for money, however, seems to be the problem that Riker, Picard, and Co. frown upon. Our heroes never seem to condescend to people of influence or power if said-power is being used for nonselfish means (so let's rule out corruption, of course), so in that sense if they have wealth, they're not using it only to replicate and expand their wealth like Offenhouse. By contrast, Lwaxana Troi is very important and it's implied that she's really wealthy, but no one thinks lowly of her even if she flaunts it, because if she's in an episode it's usually for a very important assignment or cultural matter -- things that money can't solve on its own. Our heroes may regard her as annoying and obnoxious, but they still see her as a good person.

 

[JarodRussell]

I think the need for status symbols is gone, and with that, you'd be surprised how many things people would NOT buy. Yachts, swimming pools, mansions with 10 unused toilets, expensive cars, the newest smartphone, etc...

You can still have it if you want, but people in Star Trek don't NEED it. That's the thing.

Just because everything's for free and possible to replicate doesn't mean people will turn into crazy idiots that replicate everything and accumulate piles and mountains of luxury items. That's the grown up part. People don't do it because they are actually smarter than that. People lean back and think about what they truly need in life. That's the "enlightened" part about Star Trek's society. Picard repeatedly states this, like that people are no longer concerned with the accumulation of things or that people work for a greater goal instead of the aquisition of wealth.


That's the thing a lot of people don't seem to understand. And I find it sad that in the newest incarnation of Trek, that very important part is completely lost.

 

[Cyke101]

That's the thing a lot of people don't seem to understand. And I find it sad that in the newest incarnation of Trek, that very important part is completely lost.

You just can't post in a thread without going really out of your way to try and tie it to bashing a 2 year old movie, huh? When was wealth and economy ever an issue -- or even a throwaway line -- in XI? Owning possessions and having direct financial wealth are two distinctly different things.

 

[JarodRussell]

You just can't post in a thread without going really out of your way to try and tie it to bashing a 2 year old movie, huh?

Dude, I'm going to discuss it with you when it starts off like this. I just gave an opinion. The bashing and flaming usually starts with what you just posted.

 

[Arpy]

I think the Bank of Bolius works in that it could be the arm of the Federation that deals with outside money systems. "Statfleet" is a human holdover apparently. Maybe the Bolians were really good with money. Or maybe they're fetishists - it's like choosing to gamble at a casino. You can choose to play the currency accumulation game.

I wonder what the discussion was in-house about it though between the writers/producers.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Honestly, there is something odd about this system they describe.

Kassidy works hard to make money when she really doesn't need it. She even risks going to prison to help the Maquis--when she didn't need to.

It's weird to say 'we don't need money anymore', then show people from that culture that are greedy, or breaking the law to make money.

Or just doing really crazy stuff to make money, when they could just as easily order food from a replicator..

Like Vash, Tom Paris, Sisko's Father, Kassidy, that half betazoid lover of Troi's....

In order to make us relate to 24th century people, I think some writers had to back track and make the characters motivated by money.

It ends up looking they have short term memory or something

 

[T'Girl]

in the newest incarnation of Trek

It really didn't come up, one way or the other. The only possible commerce we saw was the bar scene.

You have to wonder though, those big towers in San Fransisco, who had to lived on the fifth floor, and who got to live in the penthouses over looking the bay?

you are using contemporary terms and definitions and superimposing them into a time frame that could have changed their meaning.

The words, phrases and their meanings and definitions couldn't have changed too much, because we can still follow the narrative of the story that's being presented.

If a simple concept such as "bank" has changed meaning, then what in the world did Picard and Jake Sisko mean when they used the word "money."

personal interpretation that a 'bank' means storing 'money'

Prior to my post, I did look up the exact meaning of the word bank. Instead of using bank, the story could have employed the term repository, or storage facility, or data center. But the story didn't, the writers wanted the audience to understand what they were referring to when they said "Bank of Bolias." And what they meant was a financial institution.

Morn (from DS9) was a patron of the Bank of Bolias, he had an account with them (There's that word account again).

Sisko's father ... can still have a restaurant and call it that while inviting people to eat his foods, because he LIKES TO DO IT. It doesn't mean he was getting paid or receiving money for having a restaurant.

If he in fact has "a restaurant" then yes, Joseph prepares and serves food and drink, in return receives money, compensation, or value in some form.

See, that's part of the problem, while they made a effort to describe the warp drive (technobabble sure), absolutely no dialog makes even a passing attempt at the no money economy thing.

Yeah they did - you just called it lying.

When? Was the supposed description along the same lines as the description of the warp drive? We saw the first warp flight by Humans, when did the 'money doesn't exist' thing happen. It wasn't in the 22nd century with the new economy, because there was definite a monetary system in the 23rd century.

The creative team during TNG created and got published the TNG technical manual, there's a (technobabble) chapter just on the warp drive. Where's the authorized work on the 'no money' system?

Many episodes involved discussions of the warp drive, Tucker, Scott, LaForge and Torres. What it could do, it's capacities and limitations.

Where's the 'no money' discussion? What were the problems in the transition? How do they interact with other systems? What (if anything) prevents people in the other systems from milking the no money system for foreign profit? Just as Robert Picard refuses to have a replicator, are there people on Earth who refuse the no money system?

 

[tighr]

In a future where they are replicators, only non-replicable materiel would have any value whatsoever.

If you're trading in commodities, sure. Meanwhile, most money nowadays is a fiat currency that's not backed up by any physical material anyway, so your point is moot.

Uh, no. Destructor's point is that the only things that would hold value in a world where most anything can be replicated would be things that can't be replicated. "Fiat currency" is moot. If The UFP used dollars, and I needed some dollars, I'd replicate some dollars. Problem solved. Except they'd be counterfeit. Why would I need to give you dollars for your widget if you could just replicate dollars yourself, too?

The whole point of gold-pressed latinum (the gold itself is worthless, since gold can be replicated, and its just a storage medium for the liquid latinum) is that I can't replicate it. Thus, it exists in limited quantity and holds value.

 

[Cyke101]

You just can't post in a thread without going really out of your way to try and tie it to bashing a 2 year old movie, huh?

Dude, I'm going to discuss it with you when it starts off like this. I just gave an opinion. The bashing and flaming usually starts with what you just posted.

You gave an opinion (and really, your first three paragraphs were fine -- it's that last line that has nothing to do with the rest of it), but I'm questioning your intent with your post. If asking about relevancy to the topic is considered bashing and flaming, then the post is probably not pretty relevant to the topic then, especially since you didn't really tie it into your point anyway -- really, only 2 of the previous 10 movies talked about money. Should the other 8 get bashed because they didn't talk about it, just like XI? As another poster kindly stated...

in the newest incarnation of Trek

It really didn't come up, one way or the other.

So Jarod, I'm done, feel free to report me, but not every topic can be tied back to bashing something almost completely off-topic without effort. I'm moving on to the rest of Dracula's post...

You have to wonder though, those big towers in San Fransisco, who had to lived on the fifth floor, and who got to live in the penthouses over looking the bay?

For that matter, Kirk's condo in TSFS was pretty swank (though very tanned -- but that's the 1980s for ya). And what about the band playing at Troi and Riker's wedding? Clearly they're working, because who would ever freely play at THAT reception?!

But that got me thinking about definitions and how they change. I would imagine that in the future, people would do away with emphasis on economic class, but also find a way to separate class from, say, competition. If there's no class, there's no negative class inequality, yet at the same time we see people like Kirk and others live lifestyles that seem of higher quality (for lack of a better word) than others. I don't know how they do it but then again, I don't know how warp drive is achieved. If Kirk paid a large sum of currency for his condo, I would imagine that in Trek society it's better that he spend the currency for the condo to help the system flow -- so that the money is distributed directly or indirectly to people and systems -- rather than keeping that currency and hoarding it and thus removing that currency from circulation. If the condo costs $2 million, that's $2 million he's pumping into the system. If it just keeps it to try and make it grow rather than eventually spending it, he's essentially a dam, and not quite in line with Trek's future utopic system where somehow everyone contributes to and benefits from everyone else's well-being. It could very well be that in 300 years, the economic system changed from the "Haves and Have Nots" to the "Haves and Have Mores," and that's a large improvement.

As for labels in Trek, I'd like to remind everyone that even in the enlightened future, our heroes were wearing Levis for camping, and Dom Perignon was thrown at 23rd century starships and used by holograms to romance shapeshifters and Bajorans in wartime. Brand names exist in Trek.