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15 year gap between TMP and TWOK

Criminy. Earlier I wrote "But if TWoK is construed as a complete reboot starting at time zero, ..." I hate to have gotten into a discussion about (as the former president said) "what the meaning of is is," but when I wrote "is construed" I didn't mean "construed as a reboot at the time"; I know that film producers 30 years ago didn't think in those terms.

I meant "retrospectively considered as a reboot," which makes no more or no less sense than does trying to fit every filmed Star Trek production into a timeline where all events are in fact serialized, even though 99% of the continuity is never revealed to us (and even though there are occasional continuity conflicts that we are shown).

Naturally many fans are inclined to favor the total-serialization way of thinking, hence the two (three?) editions of the Star Trek Chronology, as well as Vonda McIntyre's occasional references to elements of TMP in her TWoK novelization. But if fans can retrospectively place one sort of pattern on filmed Trek, does that make other sorts of retrospective views illegitimate or "conterfactual"?

If the producers and writers of TWoK had wanted to explicitly indicate that X number of years had passed since TMP, that would have been easy to do; they didn't (although they were explicit about the number of years since Khan and Kirk had met before). The initial prints in May 1982 had no "II," as we all know. Kirk starts at a desk job in both stories. There are all kinds of reasons to think that (in modern terms) a reboot was the idea, albeit one with the same cast as the first attempt.

The producers of TWoK, it seems to me, clearly made the correct choice to avoid being an explicit sequel to TMP. I mean, would any of us be here if not for the success of TWoK?

(I'll concede your point about Spock - but I would also argue that Spock's personal growth between TMP and TWoK could have been primarily Nimoy's own doing, and may not represent any effort by the writers/producers/director of TWoK to indicate the lasting effect of the TMP events on Spock.)

Cosmetic differences aside, I just cannot see how TWOK is a reboot (even retrospectivally).

Okay, The uniforms are different and the sets have been given new detailing but everything else is broadly the same. Thematically the movie is a bit different from TMP but there are no massive changes. All the characters are still the same.

It is not a direct sequel in terms of story but it is an implied sequel. For the hardcore fan you can still join the dots between the movies.
 
(I know that this avoids explanation of the second turboshaft to the bridge among other design changes, but it's not as if the Enterprise didn't change and grow during the TV series, either.)

The second turboshaft first appeared in TAS, as did Vulcan's skyscape.
 
The second turboshaft first appeared in TAS, as did Vulcan's skyscape.

Well, a second door appeared on the bridge in TAS, but we don't know if it led to a turboshaft. The Franz Joseph and Michael McMaster blueprints showed it leading to a service corridor around the bridge. And it was located to forward port, next to the viewscreen, rather than aft starboard.
 
All the characters are still the same.
No, they're not! Pauline Kael was, in my opinion, correct that "the same actors who looked flabby and embarrassed [in TMP] turn into a troupe of confident, witty professionals."* Not to mention the evident consensus here that Spock did undergo a major change as of the end of TMP (or prior to the start of TWoK, depending on your point of view).

*This may largely be a matter of who the director was. Take Kirk's "casual" lines, for example, the sort that are independent of the story at hand. In TMP all such lines (or Shatner's line readings, as the case may be) are awkward and stilted, right up to "thataway," whereas in TWoK lines such as "this is damn peculiar" get just the right emphasis. A lot of the difference in characterization, I think, has to be attributed to the generational difference between the directors of TMP and TWoK the difference in the nature and extent of their prior experience, and the impact of all this on how they direct actors' line readings, movement, etc. Robert Wise may not have been the right director for exchanges such as the one that includes Kirk saying "now that we've got them just where they want us" - which is meant to be witty but just lies there and has done so ever since 1979.

It is not a direct sequel in terms of story but it is an implied sequel. For the hardcore fan you can still join the dots between the movies.

Okay, I'll grant that this is possible - the producers of TWoK would have to be pretty clever to have thought in those terms, and maybe they were; the inclusion of Spock's "Remember" scene is proof enough that they were thinking ahead.

I do hope that in all these posts I am not perceived as a mere contrarian. I've been watching since the third-season premiere ("Spock's Brain") - right around the time I bought my copy of The Making of Star Trek - and had no idea, until weekday reruns began, that what I saw first-run was (other than in special effects and music) not the best the series had to offer. I remember quite well the drought of the mid-1970s when the animated episodes were over with, and the only "new" Trek was a Kirk-and-Spock anti-drug-abuse radio spot, which took the form of a conversation at the end of a planetary survey where addiction had ruined the native society. So I became very sensitive to early reports of both of the first two movies. I remember seeing the "A 23rd Century Odyssey Now" ad for TMP months before release, with the artwork of the early version of the TMP ship and with Roddenberry given part of the writing credit. I would buy weekly Variety at a newsstand (less than a dollar and on newsprint) in 1981 to read about the production of Star Trek II: The Undiscovered Country. I remember quite clearly the difference in the reception given the first two movies. I'm even reasonably sure that I'm personally responsible for Leonard Maltin's annual movie guide including the sentence "Originally released without the 'II' in its title" in the entry for TWoK starting in 1991. I'm interested in facts, and as someone who has worked in nonfiction publishing for many years, I know that published books (or magazine artlcies, etc.) on a given subject are always likely to include and exclude certain facts selectively, shade the meaning of certain facts, be prone to the vicissitudes of the editing process at a given publisher, etc. [This can happen in journalism as well, of course, but in general journalists have tried harder (in the pre-internet era, at least) to be factual.] And because I'm interested in facts, I suppose I'll never be the kind of fan who would rather weave these various filmed Trek stories into a greater continuity.

I hadn't heard of the Allan Asherman book on the making of TWoK and will start looking for it. I wonder whether I'll find it trustworthy. Maybe so.
 
If want some more hard data from canon sources: Kirk is 34 years old in "The Deadly Years," but is turning 50 in TWOK, so we know for a fact that TWOK was sixteen years after the second season of TOS . . . .
 
It's worth noting that Shatner had the specifics about how old Kirk was in the movie dropped from the final film. If Kirk was 33 during "Space Seed," and the movie literally takes place fifteen years later, then he's 48. Shatner was 50 when he made the movie, though.

And gottacook, if you're really interested in TWOK, the University of Iowa has Nicholas Meyer's production files from the making of the movie. I've only spent one day there so far (it's not exactly next door to LA, after all), but what they have there is incredibly illuminating.
 
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Robert Wise may not have been the right director for exchanges such as the one that includes Kirk saying "now that we've got them just where they want us" - which is meant to be witty but just lies there and has done so ever since 1979.

Well, I thought it was funny.


It is not a direct sequel in terms of story but it is an implied sequel. For the hardcore fan you can still join the dots between the movies.

Okay, I'll grant that this is possible - the producers of TWoK would have to be pretty clever to have thought in those terms, and maybe they were; the inclusion of Spock's "Remember" scene is proof enough that they were thinking ahead.

First off, I don't see why they'd have to be so clever to realize that some fans would draw connections between the films. That's pretty darn obvious, isn't it?

Second, when they shot the "Remember" scene in TWOK, they had no intention of resurrecting Spock. The scene of his torpedo tube intact on the Genesis surface wasn't even added until after preview audiences found the original ending too depressing -- and even then it was just intended as a note of ambiguity. The "Remember" line was similar -- not an intentional foreshadowing of something they already planned to do, but just a little thing they slipped in there that gave them the potential to do something unspecified later on, or maybe just make the audience wonder about the possibilities. (And it was probably an homage to "Forget" from "Requiem for Methuselah.")
 
I've heard this too and find it a bit strange. There are three years between the film releases, but it seems that more time has passed between them in the universe they are set. I think it's even more evident in Star Trek III when Admiral Morrow tells Kirk the, "Enterprise is [20 years] old. We feel her day is over."

But.. but... she was like-new two movies ago!

Kirk did seem much older in ST2. In the first film, despite him being an Admiral, he seemed like a man who just wanted to recapture his youth and command again. In ST2 he seems much more set in his ways as an Admiral.

I have wondered how much time really did pass between the two. To me, it doesn't seem like two or three years just given where they are.
 
I've heard this too and find it a bit strange. There are three years between the film releases, but it seems that more time has passed between them in the universe they are set.

Keep in mind that TMP came out ten years after TOS but was set only two and a half years or so after the end of the five-year mission. If we go with the standard assumptions about the dates, then four years passed between "Turnabout Intruder" and TMP, so the characters in TMP have aged six years less than the actors. But TWOK reflected the real time interval between "Space Seed" (1967) and the movie (1982).

Of course then we got the next three movies spanning seven years of real time and less than a year of story time, so the characters' ages fell behind the actors' again -- until we got another multi-year jump between TFF (which the Okudas put in 2287 though it doesn't make sense to put it any later than late '85/early '86) and TUC (in 2293).


I think it's even more evident in Star Trek III when Admiral Morrow tells Kirk the, "Enterprise is [20 years] old. We feel her day is over."

But.. but... she was like-new two movies ago!

And that doesn't make much sense because TSFS is apparently mere days or weeks after TWOK. It also contradicts "The Cage," which would require the Enterprise to have been in service at least 28 years before the movie (though under current assumptions it's 31 years, since the Okudachron pushed TWOK forward to 18 years after "Space Seed" instead of 15). The 20-year figure was chosen to avoid confusing casual viewers, since Star Trek was an 18-year-old franchise at that point.
 
Robert Wise may not have been the right director for exchanges such as the one that includes Kirk saying "now that we've got them just where they want us" - which is meant to be witty but just lies there and has done so ever since 1979.

Well, I thought it was funny.

I did too.:lol: As a matter of fact, on Friday December 7,1979, I still remember that the majority of the audience, including myself, thought it was a funny Kirk comment.
 
Robert Wise may not have been the right director for exchanges such as the one that includes Kirk saying "now that we've got them just where they want us" - which is meant to be witty but just lies there and has done so ever since 1979.

Well, I thought it was funny.

I did too.:lol: As a matter of fact, on Friday December 7,1979, I still remember that the majority of the audience, including myself, thought it was a funny Kirk comment.

I love that line. And both expressions on Kirk and Decker are great.
 
TMP is supposed to be less than three years after the 5-year mission ended
How is it "supposed" to be that?:confused:

The actors are much older. The ship has changed. The characters' positions in life have changed. The characters have been separated from each other for a period of time. Nowhere is it suggested that TOS would be particularly fresh in their memories. And no plot element or offhand remark indicates that TOS would be less than three years away, or indirectly that TMP would be taking place at a date that is known to be close to the dates of TOS.

At the very best, we get a stardate, SD 7410, which is 1500 units higher than the highest TOS date. It would be quite difficult to turn these 1500 stardate units into anything between the 2.5 years minimum and this strangely "supposed" 3 years maximum.

Where does the "supposition" come from? Press releases?

Timo Saloniemi
 
I love that line. And both expressions on Kirk and Decker are great.

Yeah, I don't agree that there was anything wrong with Wise's direction of the performances. In watching the film again just recently, I was struck by how good a job the actors' nonverbal interplay does at conveying things that didn't come through well enough in the script, like the gradual building of trust and friendship between Kirk and Decker following their confrontation in his quarters.


TMP is supposed to be less than three years after the 5-year mission ended
How is it "supposed" to be that?:confused:

According to dialogue in the film, Kirk's been chief of operations for two and a half years, and the Enterprise has been undergoing refits for eighteen months. And Kirk explicitly refers to his "five years out there," scuttling any suggestion that he commanded the Enterprise for a second five-year mission between TOS/TAS and TMP (as some of the early novels seem to have assumed). So the interpretation that more than three years elapsed between the 5-year mission and TMP is difficult to justify. If it's been, say, 9 years since the 5-year mission ended and Kirk's only been CSO for 2.5 years, what the hell was he doing for the intervening 6.5 years? Certainly not commanding the Enterprise, or any other starship, since he explicitly wasn't "out there" for more than five years. He would've had to be in a desk job or otherwise planetbound for the entire interval. But there's no indication that anyone else commanded the Enterprise between Kirk and Decker -- and Decker is still "untried" as a captain at the time of TMP. So was the ship just sitting in a museum or something for 7.5 years before it was refitted? And given how desperate Kirk is to get the Enterprise back, it's hard to believe that he could've gone that long without being in command of it. The only plausible interpretation of the film's dialogue is that Kirk's promotion to CSO followed closely on the end of the 5-year mission.

There's also the fact that Scott, Sulu, Uhura, and Chekov have each gone up only one step in rank from TOS to TMP. I can buy such skilled officers getting only one promotion within three years, but within a decade? No way.

Gene Roddenberry's novelization of TMP made it explicit that Kirk had been promoted to admiral right after the 5YM ended. That's not canonical, of course, but it's the most reasonable interpretation of the evidence. Which is why the Okudas put TMP only two calendar years after the end of the 5YM, and why the current convention used by Memory Alpha and Pocket Books is to put it in 2273, three calendar years after the canonically established 2270 date for the end of the 5YM.


The actors are much older.

They don't really look or sound that much older, certainly not compared to how they look in TWOK. It's really quite interesting -- they aged 10 years between TOS and TMP and three years between TMP and TWOK, but it seems like it was the other way around. Maybe because in TMP they were made up and lit to look younger but in TWOK they were allowed to show their age. But even Kirk's voice in TMP sounds younger, closer to his TOS voice, than it does in TWOK.

Besides, actors aren't their characters. Frakes and Sirtis were much older in "These Are the Voyages" than they were in "The Pegasus," but they were supposed to be happening at the same time. And as stated, the actors are 7 years older in TFF than they were in TWOK even though less than a year of story time elapses between the two films.
 
Kirk explicitly refers to his "five years out there," scuttling any suggestion that he commanded the Enterprise for a second five-year mission
The very concept of "five-year missions" is dubious at best - not to mention largely noncanonical, as you yourself pointed out not long ago IIRC. Why should this be the only way to clock star hours? Kirk needn't have terminated another longterm assignment 2.5 years ago sharp - he may have done a two-month stint amidst all his desk duties at that point. He'd probably have to do some serious desk heroics to gain the position of Chief of SF Ops, rather than just hop off when the docking clamps grab the TOS ship and climb straight to this top office. Plenty for Commodore Kirk to do before he becomes Admiral Kirk!

there's no indication that anyone else commanded the Enterprise between Kirk and Decker
No indication somebody didn't, either. Although it's also entirely plausible the ship just sat in mothballs until Starfleet invented a way to make her useful again. Perhaps the refit wasn't because the ship needed a performance upgrade - but because she was a lost cause and a complete rebuilding would be the only way to return her to service. (Curiously enough, we never hear of any aspect of her performance that would be superior to the TOS specs!)

given how desperate Kirk is to get the Enterprise back, it's hard to believe that he could've gone that long without being in command of it
To the contrary, a long interval would explain the desperation!

Gene Roddenberry's novelization of TMP made it explicit that Kirk had been promoted to admiral right after the 5YM ended.
Explicit, but not particularly plausible. Why should we think he was allowed to skip a rank (the well-established Commodore) when he doesn't seem to be getting much in the way of VIP treatment outside the TMP context - and even there gets it only if we believe in the minimum elapsed time theory?

In contrast,

There's also the fact that Scott, Sulu, Uhura, and Chekov have each gone up only one step in rank from TOS to TMP. I can buy such skilled officers getting only one promotion within three years, but within a decade? No way.
Here we have fifteenish-years-from-TOS till our next encounter with these folks, and they have only gone up two steps from TOS now. Why would one step per 7.5 years be considered anomalous, then? Especially when we then spend the next half a decade without witnessing any further promotions (although that may have to do with the fact that Starfleet now hates these guys for their successful mutiny and cult status).

The average rate of promotion everywhere else is even slower than that, except for Geordi LaForge. Which may have something to do with the idea that these guys are supposed to be working until 75 or so ("Counter-Clock Incident"), thanks to the wonders of modern medicine...

it's the most reasonable interpretation of the evidence
The jury is certainly still out on that. And none of this makes 2.5 years the "supposed" interpretation - nobody in the team really expects or hopes us to choose this one over some other model.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Has it ever been explained how Christine Chapel became an MD between the end of the five year mission and the events of Star Trek: The Motion Picture? Had she already been in Medical School and left to join the crew of U.S.S. Enterprise and then finished her degree upon Enterprise's return? Or was she studying for her MD while on the U.S.S. Enterprise? I understand from the Star Trek: The Motion Picture novelization she was CMO of the U.S.S. Enterprise before McCoy's commission was re-activated.

Because of Chapel's MD and position as CMO, I have always imagined that the period between the end of the five year mission and the events of Star Trek: The Motion Picture was longer than three years.
 
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Y'know, this Dr. Chapel business - (what was she doing in TVH, anyway, that a non-M.D. couldn't do?) - got me to thinking: When plans were first made to film TMP for theatrical release, was there discussion of explicitly saying in the script that 10 years have elapsed, analogous to the "15 years" dialogue in TWoK? (i.e., 10 years since the end of the third year; 8 since the end of the 5-year mission) - was a decision made not to do so, in favor of stardates only? Anyone know?
 
Does anyone know if any of the production materials for Star Trek: Phase II established the time that had passed since Star Trek TOS?
 
Has it ever been explained how Christine Chapel became an MD between the end of the five year mission and the events of Star Trek: The Motion Picture? Had she already been in Medical School and left to join the crew of U.S.S. Enterprise and then finished her degree upon Enterprise's return?

Yes, most likely. We know that she gave up a career in bio-research to go into space to search for her fiancee Roger Korby. So it's easy to conclude that she was already on track toward becoming a doctor and put it on hold.

Or was she studying for her MD while on the U.S.S. Enterprise?

That's also a possibility, one that was referenced in Diane Duane's novels from the '80s.


Because of Chapel's MD and position as CMO, I have always imagined that the period between the end of the five year mission and the events of Star Trek: The Motion Picture was longer than three years.

But the preponderance of evidence is that it was less than that. One exception doesn't invalidate all the rest, especially since it can be explained.


When plans were first made to film TMP for theatrical release, was there discussion of explicitly saying in the script that 10 years have elapsed, analogous to the "15 years" dialogue in TWoK? (i.e., 10 years since the end of the third year; 8 since the end of the 5-year mission) - was a decision made not to do so, in favor of stardates only? Anyone know?

There was never any plan for it to be 10 years. The Phase II bible referred only to it being "the second five-year mission" after a refit, making it pretty clear that not a great deal of time was supposed to have passed between missions. The story outline by Alan Dean Foster opens with the ship already on routine patrol, with no mention of elapsed time. The first-draft script by Harold Livingston also has no specific references to the elapsed time. And The Making of ST:TMP doesn't specify anything about any plans to mention the time elapsed.

There is no evidence to suggest that the filmmakers ever intended for the gap between TOS and TMP to correspond to real time. Modern TV and sometimes film is rather obsessed with keeping everything in real time, but that's a modern fashion. It wasn't something they would've defaulted to in the 1970s. Especially in something set in the future, where there was no need to keep pace with real time.
 
I've always been fine with three years (or so) having passed since their five year mission. Obviously the cast had visibly aged in the 10 years that have passed since TOS, but then again we only saw three seasons (which could equate to only three years of the five year mission). In the two years that followed TOS, Scotty could have grown a moustache and gone gray and during his reassignment, Kirk could have grown his hair and visibly aged from the lack of activity in his office job.

The way I see it...

TOS-TMP: 3 years
TMP-TWOK: 12 years
TSFS-TVH: 9 months
TVH-TFF: 6 months?
TFF-TUC: 7 years

Those figures are roughly consistent with McCoy stating that he had served for 27 years as CMO on the Enterprise (and the Ent-A) in TUC.
 
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