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15 year gap between TMP and TWOK

Yes, whatever happened at the party wasn't much. Enough to make them uncomfortable, enough for the crew to be snickering about, enough for Kirk to regret as being uncharacteristic. It was probably just him telling her she was the mosht bootiful gal at the party and trying to stick his tongue down her throat. We do know that Kirk likes to drink alcohol after all. Maybe Bones spiked the punch. :alienblush:
 
I share your admiration of early TOS Kirk as a character.

I am not expressing admiration. It's so frustrating to me that so many people assume that the only possible angle from which to approach a discussion is the angle of personal preference or emotional bias. What I'm trying to do is to evaluate the situation objectively, purely on the evidence. And when people assume I'm arguing from bias or have a personal agenda, it keeps me from getting my point across.

I'm not saying the way Kirk was written at the time was "better" or "worse" than how he later came to be perceived, because that doesn't have a damn thing to do with establishing the facts of the matter. I'm merely saying that it's how he was written.


He was very sophisticated for a sixties hero and by no means cocky, arrogant, or lascivious. Still - if Helen Noel was tipsy and offering it on a plate - it must have been challenging for the writers to resist - he wasn't a nun... :drool:

"Must?" You keep using these words that allow no possibility of ambiguity even though what you're offering is merely unsubstantiated opinion. There's no "must" about it. It doesn't even make sense given the preponderance of evidence. Eve McHuron threw himself at him and he was unmoved. Rand made it clear she was willing and he didn't respond. The writers made it clear that they had no problem "resisting."

Kirk was written as a professional military man. If a member of his crew was compromised by alcohol and making inappropriate advances on him, he would not take advantage of her. That would practically be rape. At the very least, it would compromise their ability to function as crewmates afterward. And first-season Kirk was absolutely committed to the good of his ship and crew above all else, and would do nothing to compromise that. It wouldn't happen. And the dialogue makes it explicit that it didn't happen.


Given Demora's age, wouldn't she need to be born during the 18-month refit period?

Demora's age isn't clearly established, but Peter David's novel The Captain's Daughter does have her conceived sometime during the 3-year span between the 5-year mission and TMP. (It was odd that TMP had Kirk as Chief of Starfleet Operations for 2.5 years but made the refit period only 1.5 years. What was the Enterprise doing for that first year or so?) There's also an issue of Marvel's Star Trek Unlimited that offers the alternative interpretation that Demora was born in the final year of the 5-year mission. (Their TOS stories were set during the 5YM but gave Scotty a moustache and Chekov lieutenant's rank, suggesting they were close to the end.)


Do we know what really happened? No. Do we know that both parties were being totally honest when they said they only danced and talked about the stars? No, we do not that either.

Yes, we do. As Nerys Myk says, the whole point of the scene was for Helen to implant a false suggestion in Kirk's mind, something that was unusual and counterfactual enough that they could both be certain it was a creation of the neural neutralizer rather than an actual event. Just making Kirk think he was hungry wasn't enough proof for him, because he actually could get hungry. It had to be something that he knew could not be true. That alone should prove beyond all reasonable doubt that nothing happened between Kirk and Helen in real life.


All we can take from the scene in the transporter room is that the sexual and interpersonal tension between the two could almost be cut with a knife.

That's a subjective reading. There was attraction and embarrassment, yes, but I don't see it being that overwhelmingly intense.


Plus, the scene plays much better if something may have happened, characteristic or not.

But what constitutes "something" in this case? Again, it's imperative to be able to look at ourselves as we assess something, to consider how our own preconceptions and biases are shaping our interpretation -- and how those assumptions differ from those of the people who made this television episode. Remember that this episode was written and filmed 45 years ago, a more innocent time in some ways. Remember that they didn't even show married couples sleeping in the same bed on television at the time (except for Gomez and Morticia Addams). In '60s TV, sexual tension would've more likely been in terms of attraction, making out, the potential for sex, than a sign that the two people involved had actually had sex. So just flirting and attraction could've been enough of a "something" by the standards of the day -- especially if it was professionally inappropriate. Especially if Kirk was the kind of man he was written to be at the time, a serious, work-driven man who resisted romantic opportunities. For a character like that, being that attracted to Helen would be more than enough of a big deal to make him react the way he did, even if nothing had actually happened.
 
I share your admiration of early TOS Kirk as a character.

What I'm trying to do is to evaluate the situation objectively, purely on the evidence. And when people assume I'm arguing from bias or have a personal agenda, it keeps me from getting my point across.

I'm not saying the way Kirk was written at the time was "better" or "worse" than how he later came to be perceived, because that doesn't have a damn thing to do with establishing the facts of the matter. I'm merely saying that it's how he was written.

"Must?" You keep using these words that allow no possibility of ambiguity even though what you're offering is merely unsubstantiated opinion. There's no "must" about it.

Kirk was written as a professional military man. If a member of his crew was compromised by alcohol and making inappropriate advances on him, he would not take advantage of her. That would practically be rape. At the very least, it would compromise their ability to function as crewmates afterward. And first-season Kirk was absolutely committed to the good of his ship and crew above all else, and would do nothing to compromise that. It wouldn't happen. And the dialogue makes it explicit that it didn't happen.

Ah ok, I see where we differ. When I use the word 'must' I don't intend it to be an absolute. I'm using it in a colloquial sense but you misinterpret my intended meaning. It is possible to be critical of someone for using words that may be open to interpretation but welcome to the English language! Scholars have carved out whole careers interpreting Shakespeare's words. Being literal and absolute isn't necessarily the same as being objective. It still requires you to make assumptions about what the words were intended to mean and I can paraprhase Lewis Carroll - saying what you mean is not the same as meaning what you say. ;)
 
Where does the "supposition" come from? Press releases?

Yes. For the entire time ST:TMP was being prepped and filmed, Gene Roddenberry was keeping the fanbase informed via official Paramount Press Releases, friendly memos from his ST Office (that irregularly popped up in the mailboxes of the larger fan clubs), Susan Sackett's monthly column in "Starlog", and the "Lincoln Enterprises" fan club subscription newsletters.

I do recall some regular journalists of the day taking the assumption that the original five-year-mission was "cut short by two years", but most of the fans, who knew there were plenty of licensed novels, comics and TAS episodes to flesh out the 5YM into an impossibly-crammed conundrum, readily accepted that the 5YM had been successfully completed.

IIRC, Roddenberry's own novelization of TMP also states that Kirk was the only captain of the USS Enterprise's type to return from its 5YM with "the ship and its crew relatively intact".

When the new Pocket novels started to come out, some of the authors took the stance that there was another whole 5YM under Kirk between the TV series and TMP, but later novels, and the Chronology and Encyclopedia, revised this supposition that the second 5YM, or perhaps just a series of opened-ended excursions, under Kirk occurred just after TMP.
 
Noel was brought in partly as a substitute for Rand because it was felt that if Rand had been the one hypnotising Kirk to love her it would have a lot of potential fall-out.

As I've mentioned before, Grace Lee Whitney calls "Dagger of the Mind" and "The Galileo Seven" as her "two least favourite episodes. Because "Dagger of the Mind" was originally pitched as a meaty Kirk/Rand episode, but her increasing unreliability led to a rethink about whether they wanted Rand to go in that direction, and "The Galileo Seven" because it was filmed after her 13-week contract was terminated and her yeoman role so easily was renamed as Mears.
 
(It was odd that TMP had Kirk as Chief of Starfleet Operations for 2.5 years but made the refit period only 1.5 years. What was the Enterprise doing for that first year or so?)

What an odd question. Why should we think that the fates of the ship and the man be intertwined?

Having Kirk back at commanding the Enterprise was an event in ST:TMP. It probably doesn't happen often; generally, ships just get handed over to the next guy or gal. Which may have happened to the Enterprise several times in her career, and not just when Pike (supposedly) gave the ship to Kirk.

The idea that the last star hour Kirk logged those 2.5 years prior was the one during which the TOS mission was concluded is one possible interpretation of the evidence. To consider it the only one is illogical; to give it preference is another sign of the small universe syndrome.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Because "Dagger of the Mind" was originally pitched as a meaty Kirk/Rand episode, but her increasing unreliability led to a rethink about whether they wanted Rand to go in that direction, and "The Galileo Seven" because it was filmed after her 13-week contract was terminated and her yeoman role so easily was renamed as Mears.

Mind you, some of her meaty episodes were filmed after Dagger of the Mind weren't they? While there may be other comments out there, I've only ever heard of Shatner accusing her of being unreliable decades later or rather he said that her drinking was beginning to show in her performance. If indeed she did become unreliable we should also bear in mind that she had been sexually assaulted around that time I suppose.

I'll be interested to see to what extent they use Rand in the comics reboot, particularly as the second story is the Galileo 7. Obviously, there is nothing to stop making Mears NuRand either.
 
While there may be other comments out there, I've only ever heard of Shatner accusing her of being unreliable decades later or rather he said that her drinking was beginning to show in her performance.

IIRC, Grace's own take on it was "it was taking the makeup people longer and longer to make me look good for the camera".

As for her part in DotM, Grace had a contract for 13 episodes and, usually, they'd be making the most of that expensive contract by using her in most of those 13 episodes. As it turned out, they were using her more like a day player, which is why dropping her option for renewal was such an easy way to save some casting $$$$.

some of her meaty episodes were filmed after Dagger of the Mind weren't they?

DotM was #11. Next up was the meaty-for-Grace "Miri" - another reason why you wouldn't want it back-to-back with a Rand-heavy DotM - and her last (#13, "The Conscience of the King") was reduced to a no-line walk-on, completing her contract.
 
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Lol - yes, she was looking far less polished in Miri compared to the Man Trap poor love! I agree that Rand would have been better and certainly cheaper as a semi-regular day player.
 
(It was odd that TMP had Kirk as Chief of Starfleet Operations for 2.5 years but made the refit period only 1.5 years. What was the Enterprise doing for that first year or so?)
There'd certainly be a period of structural analysis to determine her post-mission condition and suitability for refit. In truth, a year's probably not enough time for the kind of examination she'd have received.

Beyond that, Starfleet made Kirk something of a celebrity. The whole kicking Kirk upstairs as CSFO reminds me of NASA's reported reluctance to risk John Glenn on a second flight due to his value as a national hero. In the novel's preface, Kirk complains of being portrayed as larger than life and a modern Ulysses and finds it odd Starfleet thought Enteprise's return noteworthy--so it's possible the ship spent time as a tourist attraction as well. Folks could jump on a shuttle to see the ship that beat the Doomsday Machine and Space Amoeba and the Orion plot to start a UFP civil war and the Klingons at Organia, etc. "Your Tax Credits at Work!"
 
The tourist attraction scenario reminded me almost instantaneously of the Enterprise-as-restaurant scene in the Saturday Night Live hosted by Shatner ("get a life...!") in late 1986.
 
There is also the Star Trek Fandom Chronology by James Dixon at http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com/startrek/files.html that builds on the fandom timeline created by Chuck Graham and Geoffrey Mandel.

ST: TOS "Space Seed" -- 2260

ST: TOS "Miri" 1960+300 years = 2260

ST: TMP -- 2267

ST II: TWOK -- 2287

TMP refit + 20 years = 2287

ST III: TSFS -- 2287

ST IV: TVH -- 2288

ST V: TFF -- 2288

ST: TUC -- 2292

ST: Gen -- 2293

Though this timeline doesn't work with dialogue in VOY "Q2" that established the end of Kirk's five year mission as 2270.
 
I don't think TMP misses the adventure. There's a stronger flavor of discovery and sense of wonder in it than in any other Trek movie, and to me that's a far more satisfying adventure than the blood-soaked violence of TWOK. Star Trek is supposed to be about exploring the unknown, not blowing stuff up. There's very little exploration in any of the other Trek movies. Maybe wandering across the surface of Genesis in TSFS counts, barely. The voyage to Sha Ka Ree in TFF is going someplace new and unknown, but it's not a very good example. There's some exploration of the Ba'ku culture in INS, but they're basically just humans so it's not very interesting.

I really think you're doing TWOK a disservice. TWOK is fundamentally about Kirk having to come to terms with his own mortality, and it's a wonderful movie seen in that light.
 
I don't think TMP misses the adventure. There's a stronger flavor of discovery and sense of wonder in it than in any other Trek movie, and to me that's a far more satisfying adventure than the blood-soaked violence of TWOK. Star Trek is supposed to be about exploring the unknown, not blowing stuff up. There's very little exploration in any of the other Trek movies. Maybe wandering across the surface of Genesis in TSFS counts, barely. The voyage to Sha Ka Ree in TFF is going someplace new and unknown, but it's not a very good example. There's some exploration of the Ba'ku culture in INS, but they're basically just humans so it's not very interesting.

I really think you're doing TWOK a disservice. TWOK is fundamentally about Kirk having to come to terms with his own mortality, and it's a wonderful movie seen in that light.

I'll up this ante. TWOK is my favorite Trek film.

1) Balance of Terror is generally ranked at the top of TOS, possibly behind The City on the Edge of Forever, but in many fans' rankings at the very top. Clearly, TWOK follows in the footsteps of BoT in many ways. A "submarine war adventure" is in no way contrary to established Trek formulas.

2) You want exploring the unknown? Exploring strange new worlds: been there, done that. The ending of TWOK: It's not Kirk, it's Spock speaking the prologue! (He still speaks!) But this time, it's the epilogue.
Spock said:
Space, the final frontier...These are the continuing voyages of the Starship Enterprise... Her ongoing mission: to explore strange new worlds... to seek out new life forms and new civilizations... To boldly go where no man has gone before...
And right at the moment, we warp beyond all stars into complete nothingness. Given what has just happened at the climax of the film, the suggestion is clear. Star Trek is now going beyond the world of the living, and exploring death, an adventure that will be continued, although unfortunately not as effectively, in the next film. But how's that for some going boldly into the unknown? It's shamelessly ambitious and right off all star charts to me. It's out of this world.
 
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I'll be interested to see to what extent they use Rand in the comics reboot, particularly as the second story is the Galileo 7. Obviously, there is nothing to stop making Mears NuRand either.

I very much doubt that. Any recurring character from the show, such as Rand, has the potential to be included in a movie sequel. And they won't know in advance what she'd look like, or how she'd end up being written and characterized in the final script. It's a long tradition of media tie-in comics to tiptoe around anything that could end up clashing with future screen installments; for instance, DC was required to avoid making Spock a regular crewmember in its Trek comic after TSFS, and Marvel's Star Wars comic was forbidden from having Luke confront Darth Vader or doing anything with the Luke/Leia relationship between films (just as well, as it turned out). And Bad Robot seems to be fairly activist about maintaining continuity between the Trek films and tie-ins. So I'd say it's very unlikely that they'd introduce Rand in the comics before she was cast in a future movie.

Indeed, maybe that's the very reason they've chosen "Where No Man" and "Galileo Seven" as stories to adapt -- because they revolve so heavily around one-time guest characters rather than the main cast, so they're stories that don't run much risk of conflicting with the film continuity.



I really think you're doing TWOK a disservice. TWOK is fundamentally about Kirk having to come to terms with his own mortality, and it's a wonderful movie seen in that light.

Which has nothing to do with my point, which is that I find exploration a more fulfilling adventure than space battles and explosions, and that I therefore disagree that TMP lacks adventure.
 
Which has nothing to do with my point, which is that I find exploration a more fulfilling adventure than space battles and explosions, and that I therefore disagree that TMP lacks adventure.

Although I feel obliged to point out that there are some great space battles and explosions in Christopher's upcoming novel! :)
 
I'll be interested to see to what extent they use Rand in the comics reboot, particularly as the second story is the Galileo 7. Obviously, there is nothing to stop making Mears NuRand either.

I very much doubt that. Any recurring character from the show, such as Rand, has the potential to be included in a movie sequel. And they won't know in advance what she'd look like, or how she'd end up being written and characterized in the final script. It's a long tradition of media tie-in comics to tiptoe around anything that could end up clashing with future screen installments; for instance, DC was required to avoid making Spock a regular crewmember in its Trek comic after TSFS, and Marvel's Star Wars comic was forbidden from having Luke confront Darth Vader or doing anything with the Luke/Leia relationship between films (just as well, as it turned out). And Bad Robot seems to be fairly activist about maintaining continuity between the Trek films and tie-ins. So I'd say it's very unlikely that they'd introduce Rand in the comics before she was cast in a future movie.

Indeed, maybe that's the very reason they've chosen "Where No Man" and "Galileo Seven" as stories to adapt -- because they revolve so heavily around one-time guest characters rather than the main cast, so they're stories that don't run much risk of conflicting with the film continuity.

I think that's a very good point, although they have indicated that the comic stories are going to reveal some things that may feature in the sequel. One possibility is (redesigned) sets for the ship while another could be the likenesses of the actors that have been cast. It might depend on whether they have decided to give the characters an origin story in the sequel or not. They won't do What are Little Girls Made of (yet) if Chapel is getting a proper intro in 2012. So maybe they are telling the stories out of order to save Chapel and Rand issues until after filming is underway.
 
I think that's a very good point, although they have indicated that the comic stories are going to reveal some things that may feature in the sequel. One possibility is (redesigned) sets for the ship while another could be the likenesses of the actors that have been cast.

But they haven't cast anyone yet. They don't even have a finished script yet.


Although I feel obliged to point out that there are some great space battles and explosions in Christopher's upcoming novel! :)

Huh? Which novel do you mean? You haven't read the one I'm working on at the moment.

Only Superhuman, of course.

Hm. Okay, there are a few blowy-uppy moments there, but nothing that I'd call a space battle, in the sense of two or more spacecraft shooting things at each other. There is a fair amount of personal combat in space or in space habitats, though. And at least one instance of a spacecraft interacting with a space habitat in an inappropriate and unsafe fashion.
 
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