6.5x08 Let's Kill Hitler (Grading/Discussion) (SPOILERS!!)

[DS9Continuing]

I thought I heard in an episode this season that River and the Doctor are meeting in reverse order. River's past is the Doctor's future and vice versa. Shouldn't the first time River meets the Doctor be the last time the Doctor meets River?

They've been a touch inconsistent with that. Sometimes it seems like they're just meeting in a random non-sequential order, and sometimes it seems like they're meeting in a specifically opposite-directions order. But there's too many examples that make the "opposites" option impossible, so we can only rationalise it by saying it must actually be the "random" order, no matter what some people sometimes describe it as.

.

 

[Saul]

If they are meeting in reverse then Mels would be the next version of River we would be meeting. Besides, they've already met young Melody in 6x01 so maybe we can skip that idea.

We saw her do it already. You know, at the lake when she was still in the space suit as a child. (Except she actually kills the Tesserlact, though we're not supposed to be smart enough to figure that out yet.)

Nah, it's a ganger. Or are these two choices completely too obvious to be used.

 

[PsychoPere]

^ The Doctor did theorize that his ganger's "molecular memory" might be able to survive being dissolved.

 

[Mr Awe]

How did the TARDIS miniaturise itself when saving Amy and Rory?

I know the show sort of suggests they were miniaturized, but I wondered if the "android" was really a TARDIS. No miniaturization needed! If it's a TARDIS, it has a working chameleon circuit that is apparently more sophisticated than the Doctor's TARDIS.

Mr Awe

 

[Checkmate]

Nah, it's a ganger. Or are these two choices completely too obvious to be used.

They were kind enough to show us that the ship can mimic life perfectly. They were kind enough to abandon the ship. They were kind enough to show us that the TARDIS can materialize inside of it with ease (which is important because the first episode was kind enough to show us that the TARDIS was nowhere to be seen).

The Doctor is going to use the ship to impersonate himself. He's inside when he "dies" and escapes in the TARDIS before the body is destroyed -- something he made sure happens to alleviate any investigations into his death.

Being a time traveling shapeshifter, there's no real way to track the course of his life, so he's still free to continue traveling as he sees fit. He's only dead "officially," since there's no longer any way to confirm it even if he continues to galavant around the cosmos.

A ganger doesn't give him any of these options aside from the very last one, especially one that's already "died." The abandoned, unmanned, 100% completely simulating, 100% pilotable, 100% ignored-at-the-end-of-the-episode Tesselecta does.

 

[Chaos Descending]

^^^ So the "ship" also has the power to regenerate, with the requisite glowy-light-shooty special effect?

I highly doubt it.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

^^^ So the "ship" also has the power to regenerate, with the requisite glowy-light-shooty special effect?

I highly doubt it.

It's just a light show.

 

[Trevacious]

^^^ So the "ship" also has the power to regenerate, with the requisite glowy-light-shooty special effect?

I highly doubt it.

After all we've seen it do, would a light show be especially demanding? Particularly if the Doctor took some time to work his wizardry on it.

 

[DAK]

Oh yeah what was up with the Benjamin thing? Is that some British reference that flies right over my yankee head or something?

Don't feel bad, I didn't get it either. I've never seen "The Graduate".

Was anyone else as amused by a certain scene as I was? I found a hilarious gif on tumblr:

http://warp69.tumblr.com/post/9489500014

Sorry if the subject has already, er, been raised... Good thing he was wearing that new longer coat!

 

[The Badger]

I thought I heard in an episode this season that River and the Doctor are meeting in reverse order. River's past is the Doctor's future and vice versa. Shouldn't the first time River meets the Doctor be the last time the Doctor meets River?

They've been a touch inconsistent with that. Sometimes it seems like they're just meeting in a random non-sequential order, and sometimes it seems like they're meeting in a specifically opposite-directions order. But there's too many examples that make the "opposites" option impossible, so we can only rationalise it by saying it must actually be the "random" order, no matter what some people sometimes describe it as.

Right. The only time 'reverse order' is mentioned is, I believe, in 'Day Of The Moon'. It gives more emotional resonance to the scene were the Doctor and River have their first/last kiss. All other references imply that they meet in random order. The fact that they need to synchronise diaries suggests a more convoluted course of events.

 

[Saul]

Nah, it's a ganger. Or are these two choices completely too obvious to be used.

They were kind enough to show us that the ship can mimic life perfectly. They were kind enough to abandon the ship. They were kind enough to show us that the TARDIS can materialize inside of it with ease (which is important because the first episode was kind enough to show us that the TARDIS was nowhere to be seen).

The Doctor is going to use the ship to impersonate himself. He's inside when he "dies" and escapes in the TARDIS before the body is destroyed -- something he made sure happens to alleviate any investigations into his death.

Being a time traveling shapeshifter, there's no real way to track the course of his life, so he's still free to continue traveling as he sees fit. He's only dead "officially," since there's no longer any way to confirm it even if he continues to galavant around the cosmos.

A ganger doesn't give him any of these options aside from the very last one, especially one that's already "died." The abandoned, unmanned, 100% completely simulating, 100% pilotable, 100% ignored-at-the-end-of-the-episode Tesselecta does.

Mimic perfectly? Amy was really robotic acting with robotic sound effects as she turned her head. She didn't look natural at all.
The ganger atleast is real in a sense, and if it were stabalised as the others gangers were then there could be no visable difference.

Also does metal burn? If they investigate the remains they'd just find a robot right? One of the teasers we saw for season 6.5 was the Doctors Bony hand presumably after they burnt his body.

It seems to me that they are setting up the fact that the real Doctor dies. I think gangers and Robots are red herrings to make us think they won't do it. I have no idea how they'd write themselves out of that but I think it being a fake Doctor is a bit of a copout. At this stage we have two viable options, both say that the real Doctor won't be killed. Would the Mof let us guess the ending this early??

 

[doubleohfive]

Am I misremembering things, or didn't River once say she got her vortex manipulator "off a handsome time agent" she had killed?

Could that be a reference to Captain Jack?

 

[Skellington]

It seems to me that they are setting up the fact that the real Doctor dies. I think gangers and Robots are red herrings to make us think they won't do it. I have no idea how they'd write themselves out of that but I think it being a fake Doctor is a bit of a copout. At this stage we have two viable options, both say that the real Doctor won't be killed. Would the Mof let us guess the ending this early??

I think that the two main possibilities are that:
(1) it'll be averted with possibly universe-smashing consequences and
(2) it won't be averted but instead circumvented. River has fuzzy memories of her younger days, so maybe she's brought the Doctor back to life before (from her perspective).

As for the Doctor gaining extra regenerations, I would think that River would want him to return most of the regen energy, and I can't see him hoarding regenerations even if he knows it's her final incarnation either way. Ergo, I think the energy went into saving his life rather than refilling his regeneration reserve.

Am I misremembering things, or didn't River once say she got her vortex manipulator "off a handsome time agent" she had killed?

Could that be a reference to Captain Jack?

There may be a connection between them. Jack still has two missing years, after all.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

I'm not overly optimistic of that idea, but it would be a fun idea. I don't think John Barrowman is likely to appear this season, but that would be a random thing to push forward into the future.

 

[Gov Kodos]

Oh yeah what was up with the Benjamin thing? Is that some British reference that flies right over my yankee head or something?

It's a Mrs Robinson reference from 'The Graduate' I loved the Doctor wondering who Benjamin was supposed to be.

Shouldn't the Doctor have gotten River's reference? He made a similar one by giving her the code name Mrs. Robinson in "The Impossible Astronaut".

It's odd but he may just know the older looking sexy woman reference of Mrs Robinson but not the actual movie names such as the character of Benjamin (Dustin Hoffman) in the movie. He does like that short outer space Gandalf in Star Wars after all. Did Mr Light get the Mrs Robinson reference in The Impossible Astronaut (pretty sure it was that episode)? It wouldn't surprise me if many would get that but miss Benjamin, I did and had to google it.

 

[DS9Continuing]

Am I misremembering things, or didn't River once say she got her vortex manipulator "off a handsome time agent" she had killed?

Could that be a reference to Captain Jack?

I don't think it was River herself who said that - it was Dorium, when he was selling it to her at the beginning of "The Pandorica Opens."

.

 

[doubleohfive]

Ah. I knew River was in the scene. I really need to go back and rewatch everything again...

 

[Starkers]

Geronimo!

Absolutely loved it, so glad I avoided anything that even hinted at being a spoiler and so Mels becoming River took me totally by surprise, it shouldn't have, hell when the sports car roared up my first thought was "River" but it caught me off guard, all the best twists are obvious in hindsight.

Loved Alex Kingston to bits in this, how much fun was she having! And kudos to Rory fo punching out Hitler and getting several cool lines in.

And I loved how Moffat even built in an explanation for how some of the older Rivers might actually look younger!

 

[G2309]

Really enjoyed the episode despite some disapointment with the time gap. I really wanted to see how Amy and Rory react to the news. I would have like more interaction between the 3. Also wanted to see more on the third Reich setting rather than being a backdrop. Maybe in the future? I also like the reference to River's aging.
I had a horrible moment where I thought they were going down the evil alien Nazi route which Trek did. Thakfully it didn't happen.

Rory punching Hitler though

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

Second Viewing: Episode seemed a lot less bonkers and turned out quite a good story. Enjoyed it more this time.