But with a shared past, and people travelling down from various alternate future branches of the timeline (as we see ALL THE TIME in Trek, and from nuKirk's perspective, ShatnerKirk and Picard are no different), there's no problem.
Nu-Enterprise Crew Complement
- Thread starter CuttingEdge100
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The 'spacedock Arial' is about the same size as the TMP Enterprise. It's not that big of a ship, and certainly nowhere near the size that the Arial from SFPO is. Go on, look at the brief screenshot of her, and then get back to me on it.
The FJ DN is not a heavy cruiser, but a battleship, which is one of the largest ships of the TOS period that the fleet would field. And, you know what? It's not all that much bigger than the CA (about twice the mass, slightly longer, and uses a saucer the size of the TMP saucer).
No, quite frankly that's just you being paranoid and/or making stuff up. No one is saying anything of the sort. (And if you don't believe me, M'Sharak made the same observation a couple posts back). Just because there are people out there that have no problem whatsoever accepting this movie into the original canon, that doesn't mean that those same people are poo-pooing TOS. Please find me some quotes where people are actually saying that "everything else in Trek, even in TOS, is obviously wrong and you're a horrible person if you think otherwise," and then I'll take what you're saying more seriously.
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This makes sense to me, although point defences seemed to improve as the movie when on. Of course the movie might be trying to have it both ways again. I.e. As when it somehow gets a younger crew in their correct seats despite Nero's influence, which should have made it close to impossible.
I have to say I got the same impression Vance did regarding the apparent "belittling" of the TOS Enterprise (without his sexual references of course). It also seemed to me that the TOS Enterprise was one of the more impressive starships available to the Federation. If counter arguments to that have been raised in the past, I can only imagine it was for similar reasons to this occasion, not because there is much support in TOS for it, as far as I can recall.
Not if the new branching universe time travel is the only one available. In that case, nothing done in the past would effect the present of the current universe. WE might argue that there still could be other forms of non-branching time travel, but who/what picks which is used in individual situations? Branching seems to be all or nothing.
I agree, but then my view that branching creates a completely new universe including an exact copy of the original universe's past is problematic too!
That may well involve the same form of "misleading" artistic licence we saw in Parallels. Ie the sideways "strut" is just to indicate where the universe came from, not to suggest an on going "connection" past-wise. How could that work anyway? Its a completely different universe. How could it be connected? Of course changing a shared past will just create another universe, not change any existing present. Right?
I'm very curious as to when Dennis was supposed to have said he hated TOS... I've seen absolutely no indication that he does.
If "the fucking producer" actually said this, then good on him, since most of those tech details are useless in the grand scheme of things anyway.
Here's the screenshot. The spacedock Arial/Planet of the Titans concept model is about the size of Excelsior... which if you actually look at the model and not just blindly worship the technical manuals is frigging HUGE. So we've got 700+m ships co-existing with the Enterprise in the 2280's. And if that's the case... why can't the same be true in the 2230's?
Other than closed-mindedness, of course.
...Alas, it's comparison pics like this that prove the Excelsior isn't as big as the model details might make it look. Or if it is, then we have to start arguing that Kirk's ship was more like 500 m than 300 m long, too. Which might not be that bad an idea, to be sure.
Also, whatever "Dreadnought" means in this context, it apparently doesn't mean "biggest and baddest", because FJ's nondescript three-naceller was indicated to have been authorized for construction just a thousand stardates before the Excelsior set some standards for big and bad. Essentially, Starfleet built those three-nacellers and Excelsiors in parallel, just like it seems to have built Excelsiors and Constellations in parallel. Nothing there in FJ's material to indicate that there wouldn't have existed parallel classes of > 500 m starships for Kirk's TOS vessel, too, then.
Timo Saloniemi
Also, whatever "Dreadnought" means in this context, it apparently doesn't mean "biggest and baddest", because FJ's nondescript three-naceller was indicated to have been authorized for construction just a thousand stardates before the Excelsior set some standards for big and bad. Essentially, Starfleet built those three-nacellers and Excelsiors in parallel, just like it seems to have built Excelsiors and Constellations in parallel. Nothing there in FJ's material to indicate that there wouldn't have existed parallel classes of > 500 m starships for Kirk's TOS vessel, too, then.
Timo Saloniemi
The Enterprise is much further in the foreground than Excelsior or (for want of a better name) Arial.
And according to Doug Drexler's TOS Enterprise cutaway, that ship was around 450m...which is backed up by the oversized TMP sets, too
And according to Doug Drexler's TOS Enterprise cutaway, that ship was around 450m...which is backed up by the oversized TMP sets, too
Based on the composition shown, Arial takes in about as much space in her berth as the Enterprise. If I squint, I may try to say that it's as long as the Excelsior. I bought some bourbon today, I'll see if that helps later.
Suffice to say, there's no way that thing can be as big as the Kelvin or ships like that. It's just not, so your argument is pretty invalid.
And according to Doug Drexler's TOS Enterprise cutaway, that ship was around 450m...which is backed up by the oversized TMP sets, too
Only one TMP set was oversized, the rec-deck, and Rick (and others) were kinda pissed about it. That was Gene doing Hollywood again.. it happens.
Timo said:
Except that we have a few bulit (at least the Entente) by the time of the Motion Picture. (SD 7410.2), making FJs' date (SD 6066) a fairly tight fit, but not impossible. Excelsior would be launched for trial runs sometime after SD 8210.3. So, for the decade between TMP and TSFS, there's no reason to think that the Federation class wasn't the battleship she was envisioned to be.
Essentially, Starfleet built those three-nacellers and Excelsiors in parallel, just like it seems to have built Excelsiors and Constellations in parallel. Nothing there in FJ's material to indicate that there wouldn't have existed parallel classes of > 500 m starships for Kirk's TOS vessel, too, then.
I think you might want to try looking at it sober. "Arial" is further away than Excelsior and we only see the rear of what is a long model.Vance said:
"It's just not"? Based on more of your above-question assumptions, right?
It's next to one of the berths walls of spacedock, which is the same size for all the berths all walls around. It is not longer than the berth wall, but the Excelsior is.
I know you desperately want to justify the Kelvin, despite the actual words of the person who made it. But you're not going to be able to fit the Kelvin as shown into TOS's original backstory. And, you know what, for 99 percent of people that's going to be fine and they don't give a shit.
You, however, are part of that 0.01 percent that's demanding that that 0.99 percent should see TOS as the adventures of an average crew in a dingy that did nothing special and there was nothing special about them - because you like the movie better. That's really all of your logic, that since you prefer the movie over TOS, TOS has to change in order to fit the movie. And if you're willing to be insulting about it, then so be it.
Forgive me that I'm not buying what you're selling.
It's called perspective. Excelsior's floating free in front of the wall. You see clearly in the shots around Rand's cameo. It's not the length of the berth at all, it's merely floating in front of it.Vance said:
I don't have to. It's there, in the film, in 2233.
I did.
It's called "retconning". Like it or not, new canon overwrites old canon. That's why there's an NX-01, that's why Kirk's middle inital is "T", that's why cloaking devices were old hat in the 2150's. The Trek tapestry is open to rewrites.
Damn dude... you make me look downright rational when defending TOS.
Why are you desperate to equate size with power? We have no idea what purpose the Kelvin-class actually served. we know the Constitution-class was a multi-mission explorer with enough fire-power to level the surface of a planet.
The Kelvin could've been a colony transport that just happened to be close enough to the Klingon border to be useful in investigating what was going on.
Simply, there is nothing in TOS that precludes the existence of a ship like the Kelvin.
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It's not that. It's the absolute absurdity that's been put forward that the classic Enterprise is a relative dingy or patrol boat and her crew were 'just some guys' with the SOLE justification that the Kelvin had to exist all along and was the real workhorse and awesome ship of the Star Trek franchise.
The dialog of the original series and movies is what precludes it. It's that simple.
So you're saying that TOS precludes any type of ships larger than the Enterprise? Whether they be cargo ships, medical ships or colony transports?
You're going to have to show me some relevant dialogue. I always considered the Constitution-class as 'state-of-the-art' in the mid-23rd century. But 'state-of-the-art' does not equate to biggest ship in the fleet.
I found this dialogue from The Search for Spock:
But I don't see any dialogue (or remember) any dialogue referring to it being the biggest ship in the fleet. Only that it is supposedly the fastest.
They mention the Excelsior being a big ship... but no mention of whether she's the biggest in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country.
I just don't see any evidence, at all, that suggests the Constitution-class is the biggest ship Starfleet operates in the mid-23rd century (just the most advanced).
It precludes large ships of types similar in function to the Enterprise. She's a 'heavy cruiser', so you're not having a lot of ships of the line much larger than that. The Kelvin is a ship-of-the-line, so unless she's a battleship or DN, she's too big for her role, when compared to TOS.
This doesn't preclude colony ships, barges, and the like, but the Kelvin isn't shown to be something like that. If anything, she's shown to be a long-range scout - and was indeed envisioned as a Saladin type.
Again, if we're going to nit dialog for this, keep in mind something very relavent here from NuTrek. Spock and Nero went to an alterante reality, but NEVER state that it's from Nero's jump. Think 'parallel universe', not 'divergent universe'. NuTrek's backstory is not the same as TOS - it's parallel.. so the Kelvin is FINE for NuTrek, but just doesn't fit TOS.
The dialogue in film makes it clear the alternate reality started with the attack on the USS Kelvin in 2233:
Spock: You're assuming Nero knows how events are predicted to unfold. To the contrary, Nero's very presence has altered the flow of history, beginning with the attack on the USS Kelvin, culminating in the events of today, thereby creating an entire new chain of incidents that cannot be anticipated by either party.
Uhura: An alternate reality?
Spock: Precisely.
Spock: You're assuming Nero knows how events are predicted to unfold. To the contrary, Nero's very presence has altered the flow of history, beginning with the attack on the USS Kelvin, culminating in the events of today, thereby creating an entire new chain of incidents that cannot be anticipated by either party.
Uhura: An alternate reality?
Spock: Precisely.
You still haven't offered a single bit of actual on-screen evidence to back up your assertions. This drives me bat-shit crazy. Just as much as the "Spock was the first Vulcan in Starfleet", "Kirk broke the Prime directive three dozen times in seventy-nine episodes" and the "Kirk banged an alien babe every week" non-sense.
NO WHERE are we treated to what exactly the Kelvin's mission is or what it's role in the fleet is. NO WHERE does TOS identify the Enterprise as the biggest ship ever in the fleet. NO WHERE are we treated to what Starfleet's design tendencies were in the early 23rd century when the Kelvin would've been built.
If it doesn't fit your personal vision of 23rd century Starfleet, fine. But don't try to pass it off as some type of fact. Star Trek 2009 has enough problems without you trying to introduce one that isn't even an issue if you've paid attention.
Put forward by who? Who's saying any of this? Certainly not BillJ, who I know for a fact didn't like the new movie and has no reason to defend it and/or put down TOS.
I ask you to name one person who ever said that the original TOS Enterprise is an insignificant dinghy just because a new film established an older ship that was larger than she was. Otherwise, AFAIC you're just making this shit up, or worse you're being paranoid for no reason.
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