Is the utopistic Trek gone with this movie?

[Temis the Vorta]

TOS was never a sterile, disease-free zone. Why do you think they kept Dr. McCoy around?

Okay, smartalecs, I mean the grungy old diseases had been eradicated, clearing space for shiny new sci fi diseases that are so much more charismatic and fun! Far be it from me to expect a cosmos devoid of flying fried eggs and giant space ameobas.

Nobody was dying of freaking smallpox or typhoid. About the only 20th C disease left was alcoholism (although I guess that goes in the charismatic category.) But at least cigarettes seem to have been outlawed and nobody is fat except for jovial space rogues.

But I'm not sure where people got the idea that Trek was supposed to be this squeaky-clean, sterile utopia where everybody is perfect and nothing bad happens.

Earth is the squeaky-clean utopia. Presumably it is not overrun flying fried eggs and giant space ameobas. It's only if you're foolish enough to venture out into space that you have to worry about such things. Ditto for war - Earth is peaceful but Starfleet is constantly getting into some sort of fracas. Presumably other major worlds of the Federation are also utopias since it seems very unfair for Earth to be the nicest place around.

As far as war is concerned, the Federation in the alternate realm is a "peacekeeping armada" now, which it was not (or never refer to as) in the prime universe. Not Starfleet mind you, the Federation itself was an armada.

I'm gonna chalk that up to a misplaced word. Starfleet is the armada that keeps all the bad stuff at bay, and takes all the nasty risks, so the Federation can live its cushy, utopian existence.

 

[Yevetha]

Which episode was the on in which Picard met 20th century humans and complained about their materialism?

 

[Capt_Pickirk]

Which episode was the on in which Picard met 20th century humans and complained about their materialism?

'The Neutral Zone'
The one where Picard gives a smug 'holier than thou' speech to a bunch of 20th century people. One was a stockbroker, one was a singer and one was a house wife or something, I can't remember the exact details as I haven't seen the episode in ages.

Riker also mentions later(or earlier) that by going by those three people he wonders how humans were to survive the 20th century. Jackass

 

[Yevetha]

Terry Farrell

http://allhypomnemata.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/jadziadax.jpg

Lara Flynn Boyle

http://imstars.aufeminin.com/stars/fan/lara-flynn-boyle/lara-flynn-boyle-20070908-308771.jpg



Sorry, wrong thread.

 

[Arpy]

McCoy also wondered how humans got out of the 20th century. I guess he was an arrogant elitist too.

I for one believe in utopia. I think it's a goal to set even though we'll never reach it.

Here's a mindfuck for you: we're living in a utopia. Sure it's not Utopia, with a capital "U", but most of us on these boards have exceptionally cushy lives compared to our ancient ancestors - and many contemporaries. We're cynical, alienated, disaffected, and rude, but time was that we truly were animals. You spent most of your time so tired, hungry, and frightened that you couldn't even think straight, let alone form complex thought. And then you died at 30, if you were lucky. Rape, murder, slavery, and genocide were how things got done. For YOU, not in some distant Third World we rarely think about.

So, move the timeline ahead however many years and yeah, I can see the Federation being even more "utopian." That doesn't change our lives any today...well, it does give one hope, and yeah it's harder to write for Mr. Cox, but so be it.

I think the problem with utopia in art is that when it's presented poorly it's boring and when it's presented well it's too damn enviable. It's a lose lose. And that makes sense. Man yearns to be relevant and utopias too often make him seem not, even though that isn't very utopian.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

McCoy also wondered how humans got out of the 20th century. I guess he was an arrogant elitist too.

I think that had more to do with all the wars that happened during them especially with the extra one or two trek said happed at that time.

Edit: Plus he's wans't real thrilled about 20th century medical technology and knowledge.

 

[Merky]

Here's a mindfuck for you: [...] You spent most of your time so tired, hungry, and frightened that you couldn't even think straight, let alone form complex thought. And then you died at 30, if you were lucky. Rape, murder, slavery, and genocide were how things got done. For YOU, not in some distant Third World we rarely think about.

Are we talking about the middle ages rolling into the 18th century? There were far more at play to why majority of humanity living during these times were subjected to shorter lives, the primary reason being crappy sanitary conditions.

Utopia can be subjected to opinion. Some consider communism to be the utopian society, and on paper it is. Never can be executed as long as humanity's lust for power continues to corrupt. Some may consider a free democracy a utopia, socialism, etc. Hell, to some ronrey fanboy sitting in his room watching his ST DVDs might consider his life to be a utopia.

It looks like that the Federation is always at war and the bigger it gets the larger the problems become. While society maybe a utopia for those on Earth and perhaps other lucky planets like Vulcan--owait it blew up nevermind-- The ST universe, in general, is far from a utopian society.

 

[Set Harth]

Rape, murder, slavery, and genocide were how things got done. For YOU, not in some distant Third World we rarely think about.

Murder is fairly common in my country, and I don't live in some distant Third World. Every single day in my city there are more murders.

 

[Butters]

I did not catch any sort of utopistic vision in this one.

Depends on your view of utopia. There were no tri-boobied ladies to be seen at the bar unlike in TFF but it wasn't entirely bleak. There was still an impressive selection of beverages.

 

[Arpy]

War and utopia are not incompatible. If the Tzenkethi blew up Corridan or Tiburon or Babel, what would you have the Fedration do? What do you think the US should have done after Pearl Harbor?

Set Harth, I was talking about prehistory - the Stone Ages, etc - because the contrast was so stark.

One thing i want to say is that progress as we've known it isn't assured. It isn't a given. Evolution can take many paths. We're not all going to evolve into Vorlons or other balls of energy. Only those who want it. Evolution, and by that I include social evolution and genetic-engineering, will only take us on paths we choose to take. The cockroach is a very old and well-evolved creature that as a species is nearly impossible to eradicate by us even, but I don't want that future for my descendants. Similarly, I don't want a future that instead of the Federation, gives us Gattaca or "Plato's Stepchildren" - an advanced few who mock those less fortunate.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

I did not catch any sort of utopistic vision in this one.

I hope it's gone, yes.

 

[C.E. Evans]

If you mean an idealistic future in which people of all races--including non-Human--work together, I'd say it was still there.

The command crew of the Enterprise, the featured slice of the Federation that we were shown, had exactly one non-Human. And actual, he was half.

You're not trying to nitpick, are you?

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

If you mean an idealistic future in which people of all races--including non-Human--work together, I'd say it was still there.

The command crew of the Enterprise, the featured slice of the Federation that we were shown, had exactly one non-Human. And actual, he was half.

That would be "being faithful to Gene's vision" of TOS.

 

[Kegg]

I don't think the utopian image is dead here. The film had a lot of optimism, and optimism is the essence of Star Trek's positive view of the future.

It's a far more positive film than, for example, Star Trek: Nemesis, which was a grim, dreary, dark affair and not terribly optimistic.

 

[Yminale]

But I'm not sure where people got the idea that Trek was supposed to be this squeaky-clean, sterile utopia where everybody is perfect and nothing bad happens . . . .

TNG, circa Roddenberry's "no conflict" decree. Probably.

Actually Gene Roddenberry having being in the military knew that there was very little conflict within any crew. You either fit in or shipped out.

Plus it stopped the show from becoming an overwrought soap opera (*cough* nuBSG *cough*).

 

[Yminale]

BTW Utopia literally means "nowhere" and even Hobbes believed it was impossible to attain. Other Enlightenment writers like Voltaire and Rousseau believed that it was complete folly even to try and that improvements to the general condition be made whenever possible.

 

[Yevetha]

Utopian=Of, relating to, describing or having the characteristics of a Utopia.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

The utopian characteristic of Earth and the Federation as a whole isn't just impossible, it's also boring. You gotta have conflict for drama. That's why Star Trek is about the boundaries of Earth and the Federation, and we rarely spend much time delving into the internal details. Do they have elections? Do they have a mass media? Are there celebrities? Does Hollywood still exist?

Envision Star Trek as a big black hole surrounded by a bright, sparkly halo. The big black hole is the Federation. We know it exists, and its existence is important, but nothing else about it is. The bright sparkly halo is the frontier - the far flung colonies, the mining operations, the space stations on the dangerous edge of the Federation. Beyond that are the threats - Romulans, Dominion, Borg - and the allure of unexplored space.

The Federation and Earth are important because Starfleet protects it from the threats that lurk beyond the borders, and derives its ideological rationale from their utopian character. Because the Federation and Earth are utopias, therefore it's okay for Picard to fly around lecturing aliens, and for Starfleet go pick a fight with the Dominion by tromping on their turf. Without that sense of superiority, Starfleet would have to be far more humble, and where's the fun in that?

 

[sonak]

well, there's a difference between "no conflict between your main characters" and "no conflict, period."

the first is doable as drama, you just rely on an external source of conflict as TNG would.(Q, Lwaxana Troi, etc.) (although Worf was permitted to avoid this rule)


the second is ridiculous, and I don't think it'd be seriously proposed anyway.

 

[T'Girl]

Murder is fairly common in my country, and I don't live in some distant Third World. Every single day in my city there are more murders.

May I ask what city you live in? My city has 600,000 people and we have about 25 murders a year.