Spin off or new space opera?

[Temis the Vorta]

Showtime needs to take a look at Game of Throne's kicking butt in the ratings, up 22% since the debut.

That just goes to show that an "off putting" nerdy genre show with a loyal core fanbase can go far beyond the fanbase and reach folks who just want to watch something good. The story doesn't need to be compromised to appeal to the new audience.

 

[Kegg]

Game of Thrones is for all intents and purposes Rome Goes Medieval Fantasy. I think the closest equivalent in sci-fi TV - in the sense of appropriating serious adult cable drama sensibilities and using them in genre fare - would be something like Battlestar Galactica.

I'd love to have more programming like Game of Thrones, but it's far more likely to inspire more swords and sorcery programs then it is a reviving a space opera franchise.

 

[Harvey]

Game of Thrones is for all intents and purposes Rome Goes Medieval Fantasy. I think the closest equivalent in sci-fi TV - in the sense of appropriating serious adult cable drama sensibilities and using them in genre fare - would be something like Battlestar Galactica.

I'd love to have more programming like Game of Thrones, but it's far more likely to inspire more swords and sorcery programs then it is a reviving a space opera franchise.

True. I think renewed interest in space opera will be more linked to whether or not Avatar 2 and Star Trek 2 are as successful as their predecessors, as well as the success/failure of ambitious television programs like Terra Prime and Battlestar Galactica: Blood and Chrome.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

I think the closest equivalent in sci-fi TV - in the sense of appropriating serious adult cable drama sensibilities and using them in genre fare - would be something like Battlestar Galactica.

I could see Star Trek getting more BSG'y in style, but not in the degree of cynicism/offputtingly horrible characters. That wouldn't be incompatible w/Showtime.

I'd love to have more programming like Game of Thrones, but it's far more likely to inspire more swords and sorcery programs then it is a reviving a space opera franchise.

But there's the counterexample of Camelot, which is flopping on Starz. I don't think the genre itself is perceived as a slam dunk, so much as it indicates that premium cable shouldn't be afraid of unusual genres.

As for swords & sorcery as a genre, I'd love to see Conan on TV! No, not the redhead...

 

[Kegg]

But there's the counterexample of Camelot, which is flopping on Starz. I don't think the genre itself is perceived as a slam dunk, so much as it indicates that premium cable shouldn't be afraid of unusual genres.

Obviously there are failures in the genre, even now (although that Camelot comes far too soon to be influenced by Game of Thrones).

But really, does someone go 'Game of Thrones on HBO was a success, but Camelot didn't work. Therefore to copy Game of Thrones, we must put Star Trek on Showtime! Get a hold of Lorraine Bracco for the ship's counselor!'

I mean if you want to copy HBO's playbook here, it does likely mean a fantasy series, probably based on novels. I know there's a Discworld TV series based on the City Watch in the works, for example. The telefilms based on his novels so far have all been by Sky, the same company which is currently airing Game of Thrones in the UK - and once chipped in to fund Battlestar Galactica. Take that for what it's worth. That news was around long before Game of Thrones aired, but I wouldn't be surprised if it influences the production in some way.

As for swords & sorcery as a genre, I'd love to see Conan on TV! No, not the redhead...

Jason Momoa, who plays Khal Drogo on Game of Thrones - a warrior barbarian who leads an army of nomadic horsemen - would make a good TV Conan... but then, he is playing Conan in the new movie.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

But really, does someone go 'Game of Thrones on HBO was a success, but Camelot didn't work. Therefore to copy Game of Thrones, we must put Star Trek on Showtime!

My point is that they don't think that specific. Spaceships and hulking sword-weilding barbarians are all in the same category with vampires and zombies - fantasy stuff, vs family comedies vs cop shows vs historical dramas.

To TV honchos the most interesting aspect of Game of Thrones is probably that it has a big, built-in fanbase. Other than Star Wars, the biggest franchise with a built-in fanbase is Star Trek.

But they wouldn't know Discworld from Westworld. That's getting way too specific. TV suits think "big picture."

 

[Kegg]

To TV honchos the most interesting aspect of Game of Thrones is probably that it has a big, built-in fanbase.

Did it?

I mean I know there's devoted A Song of Ice and Fire fans, and has been for years and years. But I was always under the impression they were moderately popular books - smash hit by the standards of fantasy novels not in the big leagues with Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter.

Really big with fantasy fans but basically nonexistent in mainstream pop culture, is what I'm pointing at there. I think the series has been a success because so many people unfamiliar with the books have been watching it.

Granted none of this will matter to execs. But what happened with the success of superhero movies like Spider-Man? A ton of bloody superhero movies, to the point this summer is headlining with also-rans I'd never heard of. They didn't decide since Spider-Man is big now is the perfect opportunity to do a Lensman film.

The more negative reviews I read of Game of Thrones' pilot is probably a good way to gauge the frame of reference for non-geeks. They invoked Dungeons & Dragons and The Hobbit. It's a fantasy show. It's very atypical of the genre in media, but in the end it's a pseudo-medieval environment with smatterings of magic. Prepare for more of the same, probably.

But they wouldn't know Discworld from Westworld. That's getting way too specific. TV suits think "big picture."

I was citing Discworld as a specific example of a TV series that is actually going to get made, building on the existing TV movies (and, in a cue Game of Thrones also took, one of those had a Lord of the Rings alumnus - Sean Astin - in a starring role). That Game of Thrones has been very good news for the British channel that carries it - on recently launched Sky Atlantic (aka channel to shove HBO shows onto) it is the most watched series by a comfortable margin, besting Boardwalk Empire by thousands of people - is something I'd be surprised if it doesn't influence the Discworld show at all.

 

[Darth_Daver]

I was citing Discworld as a specific example of a TV series that is actually going to get made, building on the existing TV movies (and, in a cue Game of Thrones also took, one of those had a Lord of the Rings alumnus - Sean Astin - in a starring role). That Game of Thrones has been very good news for the British channel that carries it - on recently launched Sky Atlantic (aka channel to shove HBO shows onto) it is the most watched series by a comfortable margin, besting Boardwalk Empire by thousands of people - is something I'd be surprised if it doesn't influence the Discworld show at all.

To be nitpicky its the other Sean.
Second, I'd be horrified if they made the discworld series to be like Game Of Thrones (and I love GoT, and I loved the 3 DW movies, especially the Going Postal) - their style is incredibly different. I've been told (still waiting on the books to arrive) that they actually "toned done" the violence and explicitness of the books. Discworld is in contrast very very "implicit", in everything, from innuendo to satyre, so it would be very wrong to make anything (not just naked people) explicit in a discworld tv show.

Sorry for veering off topic from trek, but my love for Discworld is just as great.

 

[Kegg]

To be nitpicky its the other Sean.

Nope.

Sean Astin played Twoflower in The Colour of Magic.

The other Sean, Sean Bean, does play Eddard Stark in Game of Thrones. May not have been clear, but the above reference was to Astin's role in the Discworld telefilm, not Bean's in the GRRM adaption.

Either way you want to do fantasy TV, you need a guy from the LOTR movies named Sean.

You're right that Discworld as a series is very different from Game of Thrones, but I'd still wager the success of GoT is good news for the Discworld TV show.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Yep, Game of Thrones has a big, active fanbase. Not big by TV or movie franchise standards, but big enough to give the HBO series some boost. A bigger franchise would only do better.

I think the series has been a success because so many people unfamiliar with the books have been watching it.

Any TV show has to get beyond the core fanbase. Star Trek would, too. What killed it was that the appeal ratcheted back so that only the core fans were left. A fanbase is a starting point.

 

[{ Emilia }]

Any TV show has to get beyond the core fanbase. Star Trek would, too. What killed it was that the appeal ratcheted back so that only the core fans were left. A fanbase is a starting point.

When was the last time a Star Trek tv show actually attracted people beyond the core fanbase?

It was TNG that did that. It was a surprisingly big phenomenon that entered pop culture. Heck my mom watched TNG and she hates Scifi and Fantasy.

Whereas DS9, Voy and Enterprise (for all their good aspects) never achieved an even remotely comparable standing in pop culture. I think most TV execs remember those "failures".

 

[AviTrek]

True. I think renewed interest in space opera will be more linked to whether or not Avatar 2 and Star Trek 2 are as successful as their predecessors, as well as the success/failure of ambitious television programs like Terra Prime and Battlestar Galactica: Blood and Chrome.

There have always been successful summer popcorn sci fi space operas. Avatar 2 and Star Trek 2 will have no influence on revived tv space opera. Terra Primer and Blood and Chrome have a much better chance of starting a new trend because they're on TV. Of course the best hope had been Star Wars, but now that that's on hold...

 

[Sean Aaron]

When was the last time a Star Trek tv show actually attracted people beyond the core fanbase?

Given the growth in "genre" television I'd say eventually we'll see stuff produced on the basis of subscriptions.

Clearly for a new Trek show we'd need to be looking for a smaller network to carry it; one that would regard a few million viewers as good enough. There's just too many channels dividing people's attentions now for me to think it's possible to replicate the audience numbers of TNG.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

When was the last time a Star Trek tv show actually attracted people beyond the core fanbase?

The TV landscape has changed so utterly now that the plain-vanilla/friendly TNG approach won't work anymore. Game of Thrones is the right inspiration for today.

Given the growth in "genre" television I'd say eventually we'll see stuff produced on the basis of subscriptions.

That's happening now. Cable makes its programming decisions partly on the ability of shows to attract and keep new subscribers, and those numbers can be far smaller than network TV because one subscriber is worth more than one set of eyeballs watching an ad, particularly for premium cable.

Star Trek and Showtime are a good match for each other.

 

[Sean Aaron]

That's happening now. Cable makes its programming decisions partly on the ability of shows to attract and keep new subscribers, and those numbers can be far smaller than network TV because one subscriber is worth more than one set of eyeballs watching an ad, particularly for premium cable.

Star Trek and Showtime are a good match for each other.

I was thinking more direct than to the network, like I'd buy a subscription for Star Trek on iTunes, but I guess that's the same thing.

I was talking to a friend about Joss Wheadon and how his shows get axed and figured a possible model would be one where he gets say %50 investment based on the number of people willing to buy the produced episodes for say five or ten quid an episode for download. Depending on production costs it seems like that could potentially work. Of course it could also end up like The Producers...

 

[xortex]

Well why can't someone produce a subscription sci-fi webseries or direct to dvd series? and cut CBS in on it or whoever backs it.

 

[Sean Aaron]

My thought exactly. I guess it would depend on someone willing to risk the money...

 

[xortex]

My thought exactly. I guess it would depend on someone willing to risk the money...

Well, it seems Star Trek wouldn't do it 'cause there's not enough of a return on the investment and it would weaken the brand and their current business stratagy, which is to starve everybody out. Not that it didn't need a shake down, but. Man they had to declaw some of those desks from people working there for 18 years. They were dug in deep and as I heard entrenched in a rather peculiar variety of poly-tics in hell.

 

[Kegg]

Well, it seems Star Trek wouldn't do it 'cause there's not enough of a return on the investment and it would weaken the brand and their current business stratagy, which is to starve everybody out.

Nah, the big mark here is Star Trek is a successful, reinvigorated brand - a film series.

I suppose if you've checked a couple of the aborted proposals for Star Trek TV shows, you might notice more than a few were scrapped because the decision was made to go into films. It seems like between the decline of Enterprise and the signing of J.J. Abrams to the project, there were a dozen would-be franchise restarters throwing their series proposals at TPTB. But now Abrams has revived the starship Enterprise and that's done.

Which isn't to say a series won't happen - could indeed happen because or related to the Abrams films, as Star Trek first triumphantly returned to the small screen on the back of The Voyage Home - but there's less people throwing concepts at a wall.

 

[xortex]

So Lindoff, or whatever his name is from Lost would be the new showrunner. Great, we'll get shows about friendship, and time travelling Romulans, wonderful. And by people who have never written it and are not sci-fi writers per se as well. That makes it fresh? Broad appeal is one thing but that has to come in it's conception and reinvisioning and approach. Just anything is never going to be good even if it's different as well. I'd rather have Asimov writing Trek than James Michner.