The Melting Pot

[iBender]

Have you ever been to London? --

I might agree about the US, who was built with a slightly different slant from the start, but the part about the UK is silly.

Being British has nothing to do with a "set of ideals". What ideals? Full breakfasts and Sunday roasts? Rights and laws, as we understand them, a a common heritage of all western democracies and their spin-offs. Rights and laws have nothing to do with being British, just as they have nothing to do with being French, or German, or Italian.

Now, with the growing immigrant population and the consequent multi-ethnic landscape, being British (or French, German, etc) has also nothing to do with race or ethnicity, which is a very good thing in my opinion. While European countries are not as multicultural as the US, we are quickly reaching the point when nationality doesn't mean anything else beyond, well, being a citizen of a nation, without the baggage of ethical nationalism and xenophobia of the past. The setting is still a bit rocky, but I cannot see the trend reversing itself, so I'm quite optimistic about the future. I could be wrong, but I hope not.

Because I can't help but poke hole after hole in this. -- Infact, I want to invite you over for a cultural visit/exchange.

 

[Count Zero]

I doubt it.

But then again, your arguing in this debate is so incoherent you probably genuinely think you do.

 

[iguana_tonante]

I have been in London. And in other parts of the UK.

Your misplaced idea that you can poke holes in anything is sadly self-induced.

 

[iBender]

Doubt what? What are you talking about? Are you telling me that Anti Social Behavier Orders are like Muslim Women in France wearing the Veil?

This is the only time a Muslim women would ever get an ASBO in the UK for wearing her Veil.

"boobs"

Can't you see why your comparison of the Police enforcing the law against what we do in our social time and that law in France and Belguim; is false.

 

[Canadave]

^ Yeah, that'd be against board rules right there. Kudos.

 

[Count Zero]

I doubt that you can poke holes in what what you quoted of iguana's post for the simple fact that it's true.

I mentioned ASBOs because you said that the UK doesn't tell anyone what to do and what not to do. I could also name not being allowed to drink beer on the tube as an example. Actually, the pic you posted (which is against board rules, by the way) is another example I named. You can never do anything you want.
Every country, every community has some rules. They differ on what should be allowed and what shouldn't. It's as simple as that.

You also seemed to argue that the UK is freer than France and other European countries and I tried to express that this notion is ridiculous because I can do things here that I couldn't do in the UK or France and vice versa. Countries have their idyosyncracies. It's virtually impossible to determine what 'freer' constitutes as far as most Western countries are concerned because that also depends on what sort of personal freedoms one cherishes. For example, I wouldn't feel very comfortable with all those CCTV cameras around and I would feel less free than when I'm about town here in my city.

 

[iBender]

I apologise for the nice tits, but my point remains.

I know you did, but, you don't know what you're talking about.
ASBOs stop us from being offensive...

I'm saying we're more diverse than the rest of Europe except Holland, but yes, we are more free here in the UK.

Our muslim women can wear what ever they want, with out fear of not being British for it, they don't even have to be British. -- Okay, I agree on the vice verser thing, like our Gun Laws, I don't know how they are in other countries here in Europe. - But that sort of makes sense, to me, not having guns.

Iguana didn't really have anything bad to say against what I said, except for me agreeing with something I quoted from President Obama (Which, as a London resident/UK Citizen felt he struck a chord and got it right when he said what he said, hence I quoted it.) -- If Iguana doesn't agree with it, than he should take it up with the US President, I however do agree with it, believe it to be so and if I could, I'd thank the President for saying it.

 

[Shaytan]

...

 

[iguana_tonante]

The self-delusion is hilarious. (And the grammar, spelling, and random capitalization are, too.)

 

[Count Zero]

First of all, I know quite well what I'm talking about or else I wouldn't bring it up or would preceed it with a qualifier.

Our muslim women can wear what ever they want, with out fear of not being British for it, they don't even have to be British.

And they can do so in all other European countries, too, with the exception of France and Belgium. (And probably the Netherlands soon.)

Okay, I agree on the vice verser thing, like our Gun Laws, I don't know how they are in other countries here in Europe. - But that sort of makes sense, to me, not having guns.

Well, looks like we might be getting somewhere. To you, the anti-gun laws make sense, to others the anti-full face veil ban does. That's what I was talking about earlier.

 

[iBender]

I'm thinking, a melting pot in Paris must be more tense due to these laws, but I don't know, this thread was about multicultralism and the President said England started the freedom in which that propspers back in 1215 and that's why America is soo great and whatever... I like it, I'm not going to lie, that speech was like music to my ears... But yeah, I like that about where I live. -- I know I'm not on my own in likeing diversity though, I just think asimulation can go too far. - We sing God Save the Queen - that's it. (Also, you have to speak English too, but that's just so you're able to live and work in the UK, and even then, that just applies to people wishing to study/work here, those claiming asylum don't have to because they're already granted entry/stay here for being an Asylum Seeker anyway.)

 

[iguana_tonante]

you have to speak English too

Must be really hard for you, then.

 

[iBender]

The self-delusion is hilarious. (And the grammar, spelling, and random capitalization are, too.)

You said it yourself, Europe isn't nearly as multicultral as America. -- Your words
"While European countries are not as multicultural as the US"...

I hate using them against you but I scream balony to that.

 

[iguana_tonante]

The self-delusion is hilarious. (And the grammar, spelling, and random capitalization are, too.)

You said it yourself, Europe isn't nearly as ethincally diverse as America. -- Your words
"While European countries are not as multicultural as the US"...

I hate using them against you.

Yeah. Newsflash for you: London is not in the US. Do you have any idea what you are arguing, or you just type whatever comes to your mind?

 

[Alidar Jarok]

but who are the French or Belguims to say that the Muslim Veil is opressive?

Citizen of their country who can decide what is acceptable and what is not acceptable and what degree of "oppression" they can allow.

I brought up the Rwandan genocide because, surely, this statement can't be absolute.

Oh, I don't want too. I don't even understand the fascination some have with this law.

I didn't bring up the discussion and I certainly don't really see the need to go down that road. Also, I don't think it's a continental thing. I think people in all countries can be wrong-headed and indifferent to the wishes of the minority. The United States is no exception here. However, I do have a problem with the justification of "the majority wishes it." If the justification was "protecting women," that's fine independent of anything else (although, punishing the women you're trying to protect makes the law a bit problematic, but that's not the point).

 

[Count Zero]

Yeah. Newsflash for you: London is not in the US.

Now you're telling me!


iBender, I think you're confusing and mixing the things Obama said in his speech. And yes, of course it was a speech designed to make Brits and Americans feel good about their countries. That doesn't necessarily mean everything in it is true and accurate.
As for diversity, I think the general consensus in this thread was that it's a good thing. And as for diverse places, well, Europe in general is becoming more diverse, additionally to the countries who've already been more diverse for historical reasons, like e.g. France.
In the district I live people of more than 150 nationalities live. I think you're severely underestimating the diversity of Europe.

 

[iBender]

The self-delusion is hilarious. (And the grammar, spelling, and random capitalization are, too.)

You said it yourself, Europe isn't nearly as ethincally diverse as America. -- Your words
"While European countries are not as multicultural as the US"...

I hate using them against you.

Yeah. Newsflash for you: London is not in the US. Do you have any idea what you are arguing, or you just type whatever comes to your mind?

Since when was America more Multicultral than London?

Go be like France or Germany if you want to say you're like them, just don't say you're like the UK when saying you're like them, because we're not.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Yeah. Newsflash for you: London is not in the US.

Now you're telling me!

I know! I even got my passport, and then I discovered I didn't need it because London is (gasp!) in Europe! And the US President giving a feel-good speech as a guest in a foreign country can't replace geography, history and common sense! My world was shattered.

 

[Canadave]

Since when was America more Multicultral than London?

 

[iBender]

So all because Italy's not as multicultral as America, means that neither is London, gosh that's wrong.