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The Melting Pot

Sparta was never a democracy and never made any pretenses in that direction, though.

Sorry, I should have been a bit more precise in my language (I was going for broad image). Factionalism plagued Ancient Greek city-states of Oligarchs vs. Democrats. In Rome, it was Plebs vs. Patricians. In all cases, cities with collaborative governmental institutions (not democracies, but not autocracies either), whenever a faction would gain control of the city, their instinct was to purge the city of their rivals. It's this spirit that I'm objecting to. I wasn't literally referring to Sparta as Sparta.

France has its problems, like every country, but it does respect the rights of minorities. It isn't the only European country to ban burkas/niqabs or thinking about such a ban. Usually, the argument is that it's an instrument to oppress women.

And that's fine. For that argument, it can be justifiable (although problematic in that it doesn't distinguish between women who voluntarily want to wear and and those who don't). What I disliked was Shaytan's argument of "the majority wants it, so fuck the small minority." That's the thing I dislike. If the concern is entirely about protecting women from oppression (and, obviously, doesn't punish the victim, i.e., the woman wearing the burka), it's justifiable. That's a societal interest that isn't targeting a minority because of who they are.

comparing France with Ruanda is a bit much. It's almost like a Godwin.

Well, I was going to go with Hitler originally, but I decided to modernize it :p
I figured a more dramatic illustration was needed, since obviously my Athens-Sparta metaphor missed the mark.
 
I think the idea was to get a fine for wearing it and then fight it all the way to the highest court. I'm not sure what the current state of that project is, though.

I don't know either. Frankly, it's a minor law and I see no problems with it today. Not in my neighbourhood at least.
 
Well, I don't want to get into this debate again, to be honest. I'm content with such a law being unconstitutional here in all likelihood, though.

Also, I have to correct myself yet again: Last week, the full face veil ban came into effect in Belgium.
 
^That law just says the state knows better and if you're a minority who wants to do what you're acustom to, you can't by law; -- I can understand Goat Slaughter for relgious purposes being stopped like the eating of Babies, but... I like what Alidar said about the Majority having all the control being bad. -- I hate opression of women, but who are the French or Belguims to say that the Muslim Veil is opressive?

Let's just say, the UK and USA stands for the rights of Minorities, and France, the Majority. -- But all 3 stand for Liberty and against opression.
 
Laws generally say that 'the state' knows better. They make laws regulating what you can and can't do all the time. An African woman accustomed to walking around with bare breasts in her home country can't do that in London, either. (Ok, it's usually too cold there for this, anyway, but you get the idea.)

This case is a bit more complicated because religious freedom might be affected. The French Republic argues that the full face veil (a burka or niqab, not the normal veil) oppresses women by hiding them in a 'prison of fabric' and that that is contrary to the ideals of the French Republic.
I suppose, due to the involvement of religion, this gets more controversy than other laws. I wish people would get so upset about the Hadopi Law and similar laws instead. ;) But there are legitimate arguments to be made in favour of such laws. I disagree with plenty of my country's and other countries' laws, too. It doesn't necessarily mean those countries are oppressive or worse than others.
 
but who are the French or Belguims to say that the Muslim Veil is opressive?
Citizen of their country who can decide what is acceptable and what is not acceptable and what degree of "oppression" they can allow.
Yes, I know, it's just soo un-British darn it. :) -- But then why should I tell France what to do? -- You'll do it your way; so be it.
 
Actually, last year, a Tory politician introduced a law proposal for a full face veil ban so the idea is not as 'un-British' as you think it is.
 
I meant the Majority thing, not the muslim thing.
Telling someone what to wear is wrong, and that Tory should find another job.
 
I meant the Majority thing, not the muslim thing.
Telling someone what to wear is wrong, and that Tory should find another job.

Great Britian is where you can live free.

Look at Romany Gypsies for example, they're a minority, they're different, but they're free to be different; here.
 
Yeah, right, the country where ASBOs can even regulate what you can do in your free time, like going into a park and the like, is so much freer than our respective ones. :lol:
 
Great Britian is where you can live free with out the police telling you what you can't.

:guffaw:
Yeah, I fine tuned that.

I just went with Britain is where you can live free.

So, what is the penalty for wearing the veil, let's say I decide to go to Paris, be a Transvestite for the day and dress up as a Muslim, full face veil and all, what penalty might I get?

ASBOs are an injuction you can get against someone or that the police give to stop people from shouting throwing rocks and showing their balls in public infront of school children... ASBOs are for people who go into town just to rob shout and be an ass and or get too drunk or too stoned.
 
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I suggest you read up on them. They might be sensible in some cases but what they can actually dictate behaviour-wise is pretty scary.
 
A warning from the police, a fine maybe a lesson about citizenship if they're in the mood but that's all.

BTW, you're difficult to read for a foreigner, I have to guess your mispelled words between your randomly capitalized words. I don't know if it's un-british (actually, I think I know) but it very un-cool.
 
ASBOs are like restraining orders/instead of locking up our dick-heads (we all have them), we give them ASBOs.

How does this

images


have anything to do with this

VEIL_1603451c.jpg

?
 
I'm still shocked at what Iguana said about, the UK being like France and Germany... - the UK's maybe like Holland, I guess.
Be shocked all you want. It is what it is.

Haha, but seriously, he said the UK's like France, Germany and Italy... I think he's mistaken, France, maybe, but even then we don't tell our people how to dress or what to believe, so even then that comparison is nonsense.
So your point is that nothing is like anything else. How insightful.
 
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