• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

STAR WARS PREQUELS - a love/hate relationship

Re: I hate the STAR WARS PREQUELS!!!

Thanks for ruining my adult childhood George Lucas.:wah:

Really? Seriously? This... again?

If you haven't caught these video essay critiques of the prequels, I recommend it. It's hilarious and sadly, right on the money.

http://redlettermedia.com/plinkett/star-wars/

Seen them. Years ago. And they are right on the money.

However, these reviews are old news. The debate is old and stale, and I'm sure someone is going to say or do something that will get this thread locked soon.

That ALWAYS happens when someone pisses on the Prequels. Others have to defend. Then those that pissed need to fight back. Over and over and over again.

They are just movies. No one's childhood was raped. No one's "adult" childhood was ruined. Seriously, if this "ruined" your adult childhood, you have bigger problems than some movies YOU CHOSE TO SEE.

Around the time the time Batman Begins opened, I asked one of the guys at at my local comic book store if he had seen it yet, he said no, but, it was probably going to suck "like all the other ones."

My thought? If you thought the first one sucked why did you keep going BACK?
 
Re: I hate the STAR WARS PREQUELS!!!

My thought? If you thought the first one sucked why did you keep going BACK?

Science Fiction, comic book and genre fans of all kinds are masochists, who thrive on hatred of that which they profess to love.
 
Re: I hate the STAR WARS PREQUELS!!!

Seriously, if this "ruined" your adult childhood, you have bigger problems than some movies YOU CHOSE TO SEE.

Of course it didn't really ruin anything about my life, it was just disappointing as f_ck, so I'm venting.

My thought? If you thought the first one sucked why did you keep going BACK?

Kept hoping things would get better, but like a battered wife in an abusive relationship, it didn't.
 
Re: I love the Star Wars prequels!

Having finished my homework for the evening I made this thread to answer the PT-bashing that has been going on lately. I know it's an unpopular opinion, and one poster in this thread has even expressed incredulity that people find enjoyment from things he does not. But I am not just some mindless, mouth-breathing idiot who likes shiny lights and cool action. I think there is more to these movies than many people give them credit for. Here are just a few things I have found to like about the much-maligned prequel trilogy.


The Phantom Menace:

The opening crawl. It really gets trashed by critics for talking about such mundane matters as taxation and trade routes but that is the brilliance of the story. Palpatine's plan did not start with some great battle or overt attack, rather he used mundane things like tax policy to engineer his ascension to the chancellorship.

Symbolism. Palpatine and Sidious are both introduced via hologram, just as we first saw the Emperor in TESB.

The Jedi in their prime. Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon tear through the battle droids like they are paper dolls. In the original trilogy we only ever saw three force users in battle: A crippled cyborg, an old man, and an inexperienced child. Here we finally get to see what the Jedi were like before the purge.

Jar-Jar. He makes me laugh. Sue me.

The visuals. Take a moment to look at Gunga City or Theed on a big HDTV screen. The CGI in the prequels gets a lot of flack but look at some of the awesome things they were able to create.

Duality. Palpatine's alter-ego is the evil Sidious. Amidala's is the innocent Padme. These four characters plot and scheme in circles around each other.

Introduction of the Sith. Did you know that the word "Sith" was never used in the original trilogy?

The podrace. If you have ever seen the brilliant American Graffiti you know about Lucas' fondness for the era of teenage boys tinkering with their muscle cars for the drag races. The podrace is this concept transplanted to Star Wars. Even having seen it a million times I still find it exciting to watch.

Anakin saying goodbye to his mother. The relationship between Anakin and Schmi is a driving force for his character. She tells him "Don't look back" as the force theme swells. You know he won't be able to obey.

Coruscant. Another name not mentioned in the originals. (It was named by Timothy Zahn in Heir to the Empire.)

The Galactic Senate. Like many Star Wars concepts, this was barely an offhand mention in the original trilogy. Here we get to see it in all its glory. I was blown away when I saw it in the theater.

Yoda. The Yoda we knew from the originals was a little creature dwelling in a mud hut in the middle of a swamp. Here he presides over the Jedi Council in a magnificent temple. How the mighty will fall.

The battle droid army in the field. One hundred percent CGI but it looks great.

Duel of the Fates. Enough said.

The little things: Jar-Jar's stupid grin when he first meets Obi-Wan. The completely obvious fact that Sidious and Maul meet on the balcony of Palpatine's Coruscant apartment. Sebulba straightening his goggles after sabotaging Anakin. Anakin glaring at Mace Windu after being told he cannot be trained. Palpatine's half smile after learning Amidala is returning to Naboo.


Attack of the Clones:

The music. I bought the soundtrack while I was hanging out in Australia in the summer of '02 and fell in love with this score. The first scene of the movie, with the unique pan-up showing the ships flying into Coruscant, quickly establishes a mood that is much different from TPM. It is a much more serious motif.

A day in the life of Coruscant. Unlike in TPM we spend a lot of time on the city-planet and get to see the normal citizens of the Republic. Rush hour traffic, people in the bar, Dex, etc.

I love the shot of Zam putting the assassin creatures in the droid. Something about that picture screams Star Wars.

Obi-Wan cutting off people's limbs in bars. It's a bad habit...

Obi-Wan's investigation and fight with Jango Fett. Obi-Wan really owns the prequels. He is not the strongest, nor the wisest Jedi, but he is definitely the most resourceful. The conversation with Jango indoors is absolutely brilliant in its subtext. The fight is amazing too, take away the lightsaber and its a drawn out bare-knuckle brawl.

The Lars family. It is neat to see them at this point in their lives, knowing their sad fates. We also get an idea of why Owen does not want Luke following in his father's footsteps.

Obi-Wan trying to evade the Slave I. Jango throws everything he has at the Jedi but cannot seem to bring him down. Notice that Boba is not fooled twice by Obi-Wan's trick, as he will anticipate Han Solo doing the same thing in TESB.

The binary sunset scene. It is a different angle, but Anakin is standing at the same place, looking the same way, as Luke did in ANH.

Count Dooku. Sure he has a silly name, but Christopher Lee brings such gravitas to the role, as he always does. You know he is being played by Sidious but you can't help but see a certain nobility in him, as if he really wants to do the right thing but he is simply going about it the wrong way.

Jar-Jar moves for the vote that creates the empire. Classic.

The arena battle, from start to finish. Mace Windu in action, Jango shooting the unfortunate Jedi Master on the balcony, Anakin and Padme working together, the arrival of the clone armies.

A special mention to the end of Jango Fett. His son will also learn the hard way that it's a bad idea to get too close to an armed Jedi.

Anakin with two lightsabers, though it is over too quickly.

Yoda doing battle. I know many people came up with this wild idea that he is too far advanced to bother with a lightsaber, but I think that was merely because they could not imagine him actually using one.

Musically and visually, the last ten minutes of the movie are sublime. From Dooku's arrival on Coruscant, to the Imperial March over the deployment of the clones, to the wedding, and finally to the end credits. Almost no dialogue interrupts the scenes. George Lucas has said that he wants you to be able to turn off the dialogue and just watch the visuals and listen to the music and feel the story. This is that concept at its best.

Little things: The droid repairing Padme's window on Coruscant. Nute Gunray's fist pump when he thinks Padme is done for. Obi-Wan checking the pulse of the dead Jedi on Geonosis. Bail Organa's frustration when watching the clones at the end.


Revenge of the Sith:

War! The opening crawl followed by the up-tempo martial music really sets the stage for this movie.

The best star-pilot in the galaxy. We finally get to see Anakin show off his piloting skills and he is as good as we thought. Between flying the proto-TIE Fighter to landing the larger vessel, we can see how Obi-Wan can describe him as the best.

The first saber duel. Anakin boasts about his greater power and then backs it up, completely destroying Dooku.

The opera scene. The music, the reflections, the shadows, they all underscore the creepiness of Palpatine as he manipulates Anakin. Since he was just a child, Anakin has had everything Obi-Wan tries to teach him twisted by the Emperor. Anakin is Palpatine's ace in the hole, and Palpatine never bluffs.

The shot of Obi-Wan jumping into the middle of Greivous' army is another pure Star Wars moment. "Hello there!"

Obi-Wan versus Greivous. Once again he shows himself to be the most resourceful of all the Jedi, finishing his opponent off with an uncivilized blaster. Throughout the prequels we get a taste of the life that this great Jedi has led, which adds so much weight to his interaction with Luke and Han in ANH.

Confrontation with Palpatine. His fighting style is so different from anyone we have seen thus far and it is clear the Jedi are completely unprepared.

The broken window scene. Mace has Palpatine dead to rights but this is where the Emperor plays his ace in the hole. All his years of manipulating Anakin have led to this moment. Everything Palpatine has done has been to further his aims of creating the Empire and destroying the Jedi. This is the one moment where he could lose everything. If Anakin wavers, or decides to trust in Mace, then all is lost. Even if Palpatine was bluffing against Windu there is no way he could take Mace and Anakin together. But his ace proves to be the trump card. Anakin, guilty about killing Dooku, cannot repeat his mistake. His lingering mistrust of Windu does not let him trust him now. And he is not willing to risk losing Padme, no matter how slim the chance that the Sith Lord could really help him. Palpatine played his cards perfectly. His reward? "Power! Unlimited power!!!"

Darth Vader leading the stormtroopers into the Jedi Temple. This is what fans have been waiting for since 1977.

Order 66. John Williams' tragic music underscores the tragedy of the scene. The Jedi walked into Palpatine's trap without even knowing it.

The creation of the Galactic Empire. Even though Lucas spelled it out in the introduction to the novelization back in 1977, I think a lot of people still expected the Empire to come about through a coup or military conquest. It was neat to see it done so much more subtly. The everyday people did not fear the coming of the Empire, they applauded it.

Anakin destroying the remaining separatists. Nute Gunray has been such an irritant and he goes down like a little punk.

The final duel of the fates. We had all been waiting to see the duel between Obi-Wan and Anakin ever since ANH in 1977. Two Jedi in their prime, fighting for the fate of the galaxy. Anakin is the stronger but once again Obi-Wan is more resourceful. His lament at the end is heartbreaking.

"Then I threw the Senate at him. The WHOLE SENATE!"

The last scene before the credits is the infant Luke Skywalker left in the care of Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru, with the Skywalker theme from ANH playing softly.

Little things: Obi-Wan and Anakin's banter in the opening battle. The Tantive IV. Mas Amedda slowly walking away. Obi-Wan picking up Anakin's lightsaber after the duel. Yoda losing his saber in the duel with Palpatine. Wiping C3PO's memory. Captain Antilles! The japor snippet on Padme during her funeral.


Overall:

Like I said, I think the prequels get an unnecessarily bad rap. They are not the same simple good/evil stories of the originals, they are something different, more akin to a Greek tragedy. Palpatine executes his plan flawlessly at every step. The brilliance of his plan, however, is the way he hedges his bets. If the Jedi foil one part of his plan he has another ready to go. In TPM he sets himself up to win no matter what happens to Padme on Naboo. In AotC and RotS he is set to win no matter if the Republic or the Separatists claim victory in the Clone Wars. The only point at which he risks loss, as I mentioned, is when Mace has him cornered. But Anakin was always his trump card. Had Darth Vader not been horrifically injured on Mustafar it is likely that he would have defeated Palpatine. But in doing so, Palpatine's plans for the eternal domination of the galaxy by the Sith would have been secure.

The music is just as good, if not better, than the original trilogy. (Mostly because it reuses the same motifs, but I digress.)

The visuals are parsecs better than the originals. The first trilogy was groundbreaking for its time but its age had begun to show. The wampa, the tauntauns, and the rancor look ok to our eyes but you can't forget that they are simply made with stop-motion animation. They, along with the ship models, often look like exactly that - models. With the CGI of the prequels, you can sometimes tell that it is computer animated. But more often than not, you can't. Every clonetrooper in AotC is CGI, but they look as real as the human actors. Yoda in Rots remains one of the most lifelike CGI characters ever created, right up there with Gollum and Davy Jones.

If you claim to be a Star Wars fan, yet claim that the prequels are complete trash, I dare you to watch them again. Watch with an open mind and suspend your disbelief, the way you did when you first saw the original trilogy. I think you will be pleasantly surprised.
 
Re: I hate the STAR WARS PREQUELS!!!

It's funny. I remember when TPM came out, people were on the fence. Over the next three years folks built up a lot of animosity toward it. After AotC, everyone said it was MUCH better than TPM and that it recaptured the magic of Star Wars. Once again, animosity built up for three years and people said the same thing about RotS, that it was so much better than the first two. Now, people simply lump the three movies together and call them crap.

I wonder how many of the haters have seen any of the films in the last five years.
 
Re: I love the Star Wars prequels!

^ It's just my own paranoia, I guess. :lol: I did not mean to insult you. It's just that this PT-vs-OT thing has gotten way the hell out of hand and tempers do tend to fray. Very nice that this has not happened here. ;)

I completely agree and it is a factor in my not pursuing SW fandom to the way I have Trek fandom.

Well you also like Enterprise and Voyager so liking the prequels is not a huge jump since they are about the same calibre creatively.

And don't forget my philistine adoration of ST:XI! My brow is so low it's a mustache!
 
Re: I hate the STAR WARS PREQUELS!!!

People said Attack of the Clones was better than Phantom Menace - REALLY? Nobody I knew. That was totally the crappest of the crap.

And for all the folk saying "not this again" you don't have to post here, you know? Shit, there's loads of threads I think are pointless without posting in them to say that.

I for one am glad this thread appeared. I happened to read a thread about Return of the Sith or whatever and got turned on to these reviews. I'd rather have a separate thread for the umpteenth time for slagging these films than piss in someone else's pool who was asking real questions about the story (thought I cannot imagine why: "It's shit" would suffice as an answer to every question).

Regarding Lucas' other films yes, when he was struggling he did some good stuff (though I really wouldn't rank "Willow" as one of the greats - seriously?), but you know a lot of artists start out strong and run out of ideas and he clearly does better in collaborations. I think the Indiana Jones films benefit a great deal from the fact that it's a collaboration between Lucas and Spielberg. Hell I even enjoyed Crystal Skull when I finally picked it up!

Lastly I was a huge fan when I was seven. We sat through the movie twice in a row - back when you could do such things; maybe it was just a Chicago thing - and every time it had a re-release I was there. I even saw the Special Editions when they premiered (though outside of the space battles I thought the updates were awful and unnecessary; I was an apologist back in the day I'll admit). Despite this I was laughing my ass off at the end of the New Hope Rifftrax when Corbett says to the other guys "So that was Star Wars, huh? Was it crap when it first came out?" and they answer "Yeah, pretty much."

I'm definitely over it and the Prequels and the endless Clone Wars stuff really helped me along. Tweaking the Special Editions further for DVD really was the shit-flavoured icing on the cake. Not only does Han shoot first, but how it looks now is so awful I can only imagine that the guy who did the effect intentionally made it look that shit so Lucas would say no, and was inwardly horrified when he said "Yeah, that's the definitive version for all time," then went and hung himself.
 
Re: I love the Star Wars prequels!

The only prequel film I didn't like was Phantom Menace. I liked the other two. That's not saying they didn't have their flaws but I enjoyed them. Even Phantom Menace had some nice scenes and the Maul fight at the end was better than ROTS's "The Duel".
 
Re: I love the Star Wars prequels!

I dislike the prequels, yet I'm sure I'll re-watch and enjoy bits and pieces of them in the future. The production values are stellar. The special effects, the epic scope, the art design and the music(although the OT has far superior music) are all excellent. The PT are the biggest most lavish space opera films of all time(so far) and for a lot of us, even myself, that gets them a sort of free pass.

But where the prequels fail is anything having to do with story or characters or editing(basically everything Lucas did himself). The story makes zero sense. The characters are almost all intensely unlikeable, idiotically stupid or exist to look cool(or some combination of all three). And the editing, outside of some story-boarded action sequences is appalling.

The Redlettermedia stuff, once you can get past the annoying format and character of Plinkett, are exactly right in almost every part of their criticisms. And I challenge anyone who really believes the prequels are good films to view those reviews and directly respond to those criticisms from a storytelling or film-making standpoint. I have seen multitudes of people bash Plinkett and by extension all PT-haters, but I have yet to see a truly spirited defense of the PT that addresses and refutes those arguments instead of just attacking the haters.
 
yes, I merged the two threads, because they'd become essentially the same thing: praise/destroy the prequels/originals. Additionally, since we had both points of view I changed the title to cover them both.
 
To me, the problem with the Star Wars prequels isn't so much that they're bad as that they're nowhere near as good as they could've been.

I mean, as I was reading Terry Brooks's novelisation of TPM a few months ago I realised that if I were watching that movie in a vacuum, having never seen or heard of Star Wars's original trilogy before, I'd probably quite like it. It does still have some flaws, so I wouldn't love it, but I'd consider it about equal to the movie "Willow". If George Lucas was just starting out this whole Star Wars business right then and TPM was its first movie ever, it'd be a promising beginning. (AotC would be an extremely confusing & disappointing sequel, and RotS would be the somewhat-better-but-still-not-as-good trilogy-concluder, and people would speak nostalgically of the first movie when Star Wars still had Liam Neeson.)

The thing is, Star Wars already existed. Three movies had already been released, showing where it would all end up. And with that comes an expectation that any fourth, fifth and sixth movie would not only match with the first three in terms of story style and tone, but also embrace their own prequel-ness in a way such that they could concentrate on telling the backstory of the originals and make it a fascinating story in its own right. But the prequels didn't do that.

TPM in terms of the "saga" as a whole functioned like a backstory-to-the-backstory, telling its own self-contained story in a bright, loud, artificial tone which was worlds apart from the originals' grungy style, mostly dicking around for its 2+ hours' runtime and ending up with only two saga-relevant developments (Anakin's joining the Jedi Order and Palpatine becoming Chancellor) plus some superficial nods & winks like "Anakin built C-3P0!" Then George Lucas apparently noticed he only had three movies to tell the full backstory and he'd basically just wasted one, so AotC and RotS then had to cram in as much "saga" backstory as they could just so the damn thing would get told: it was forced, obviously so, as if telling the backstory of the originals wasn't the prequels' purpose but rather their chore. The story was just an inconvenience to run through before getting to the next action sequence. And that approach just meant that ultimately the stories of AotC and RotS just weren't any good. (Thank goodness for Matthew Stover, who actually managed to salvage a brilliant novel out of the dog's breakfast that was RotS.)

So, yeah. That's my perspective. And if you're interested, here is my list of the inherent flaws of TPM which would keep me from actively loving it had it been the first Star Wars movie ever made:
-- It is far too in love with its own CGI technology. There are multiple long action sequences that could be removed entirely with no adverse effect (the underwater-monsters-attack-the-bongo sequence), shortened considerably (the podrace) or consolidated (the climax, with its four simultaneous action sequences).
-- The Tatooine sequence seems... out of place. It's almost like the movie we'd been watching up to that point stops at that point and a new, separate short film starts in its place: the tone is different (much more measured and less urgent), the protagonists have new motivations (the hyperdrive), the character dynamics are different (Padme becomes a main character, while Obi-Wan becomes a background character), and it even has its own self-contained climax (the podrace)... then it ends and the original movie comes back once they take off from Tatooine and resume heading for Coruscant. The previous tone is back, Obi-Wan's a main character again, etc., except that Anakin's with them now.
-- Anakin Skywalker was written badly in quite a few places (all the cries of "Yippee!" for one thing, as well as that "fear attracts the fearful" business they thankfully cut out). Additionally, Jake Lloyd just wasn't a good actor: quite a lot of the time Anakin was written perfectly well and Lloyd just played him badly.
-- Jar Jar Binks was written terribly. His character isn't inherently flawed, though: I mean, the character who filled his comic-relief role in Episode IV was C-3P0, who's a prissy butler robot. But the difference is that while C-3P0 was sympathetic despite being useless and self-centred, Jar Jar is unsympathetic because he's worse than useless: he actively screws things up and is always right in the thick of things even when there's no reason for him to be there. Add to that, Ahmed Best is a bad actor too. I mean it. Reading Brooks's novelisation, I realised that many of Jar Jar's lines aren't all that bad, and the reason why they're grating is that Best just overplays them.
-- Note the title: "Star Wars". I guess the Naboo vs Trade Federation business could be regarded as a war, but it's not much of one: it's about equivalent in size & scale to the 2008 war over South Ossetia.
-- There were two main Jedi characters in this movie and they killed off the one I liked! I know that Obi-Wan had to survive so that he could die in Episode IV, but if TPM was the first Star Wars movie ever I'd be seriously disappointed that they'd killed off Anakin's cool old mentor and left him with the stodgy joyless sidekick to train him instead. Again, this could've worked if Obi-Wan had been shown to develop into a much more Qui-Gon-like figure in the course of training Anakin (in fact, that's exactly what they should have done) but that didn't happen because there was a ten-year time skip between TPM & AotC after which Obi-Wan was still stodgy and joyless!
 
Re: I love the Star Wars prequels!

The Redlettermedia stuff, once you can get past the annoying format and character of Plinkett, are exactly right in almost every part of their criticisms. And I challenge anyone who really believes the prequels are good films to view those reviews and directly respond to those criticisms from a storytelling or film-making standpoint. I have seen multitudes of people bash Plinkett and by extension all PT-haters, but I have yet to see a truly spirited defense of the PT that addresses and refutes those arguments instead of just attacking the haters.

I agree with this statement whole-heartedly. I think the core of these reviews is spot-on and I would love for the people who profess love for these films to watch these reviews in their entirety and pen a response here that isn't a comment on the tone of voice used or the Plinkett character, but the substance of the reviews (outside of the nitpicks which are acknowledged as such).

The time invested in watching them is significantly less than watching the films themselves so it's not a monumental task and could prove entertaining and enlightening or be the equivalent of learning there's no Santa Claus.
 
Re: I love the Star Wars prequels!

And let me be clear on one other thing: I love the prequels, and prefer them, but this does not by ANY stretch of the imagination mean that I do, or even should, hate the originals. I don't hate the OT. I just like the PT more.

Fair enough, innit? :shrug:

Not really. For some people here, you are sub-human unless you hate the same things they do.

The Trek TOS forum is, um, thataway. :lol:
 
One last thought on this matter:

Consider the expression "the force is strong with this one."

Apparently, Jedi can sense force emanations. Even from great distances, yet here we have Palpatine, a SITH LORD, oozing with the Dark side, and no Jedi was able to pick it up even when in his presence.

That lack of logic there killed the whole prequel story for me.

Lucas tried to cover it with some mysterious...
"our use of the Force is diminished" -Mace Windu
...without even explaining how or why.

But it was lame.

Palpatine should have been a hidden figure, not a public politician. Someone the Jedi suspected was in existence causing havoc in the background, but just couldn't pin down just yet.

The other flaw is this: there can only be two Sith at a time BS. A master and an apprentice. NOT really. I doubt Count Dooku converted over night. He was still around even when Darth maul lived. Last I checked that makes 3, not two. it also limits your villains. Based on this lself-imposed limitation there can never be an army of Sith.

The shame of it all is that Lucas had access to such well known and capable actors...and yet made them all look incompetent from a cinematic point of view. For a newcomer, the prequels would have been a career killer.

The lesson here boys and girls, is that writers/directors/editors can make or break a movie. A great movie relies very little on the actors, and personally, I prefer new faces and unknown talent anyway.

There was even a time from 2002 through 2005 that I was more of a Star Wars fan than a Star Trek fan.

HOW DARE YOU SAY THAT HERE!!!!:wtf:

Mods, BAN this member!!!:rofl:
 
Last edited by a moderator:
So . . . anyone excited for The Phantom Menace 3D release in theaters next year? I'm stoked, I think it is very well designed/staged for 3D. Better in fact, than the other five Star Wars movies.
 
I don't see the point in 3D releases of any films myself; seeing as I wear glasses when I watch movies/DVDs it's not something I partake of.
 
I love space opera and the Star Wars prequels, though flawed and disappointing, are still some of the best space opera movies ever made.
 
Re: I hate the STAR WARS PREQUELS!!!

Seriously, if this "ruined" your adult childhood, you have bigger problems than some movies YOU CHOSE TO SEE.

Of course it didn't really ruin anything about my life, it was just disappointing as f_ck, so I'm venting.

NOW? How many years ago did they come out? Seriously, you still need to vent? You're STILL disappointed?

The internet has moved on...
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top