6x04 The Doctor's Wife(Grading/Discussion) (SPOILERS!!)

[PorthosShadow]

They all burned to death. That's been explicitly established multiple times, most recently in "The End of Time, Part Two." The Time Lock is just a thing that kept the Time Lords from time traveling away before burning.

You mean the same episode where we saw inside the time lock, where many of the Time Lords were fine and dandy, just incredibly annoyed, and who very nearly broke free from said time lock because they were instead stuck in a moment of a time rather than dead?

That episode?

Where, you know, they were clearly alive?

Even though they were supposed to be dead?

But weren't.

Because, you know, they weren't.

Since, you know, they very nearly escaped and even interacted with the Doctor and the Master.

That one?

Is that the episode you're referring to, using it to claim just how dead the Time Lords are?

Really?

I figured all the times The Doctor said they burned was just a very dramatic way of saying they were gone. Also, maybe it's just obvious to me but the time lock is more or less a time prison and we saw them escape once. For some reason, I can't imagine The Master hanging around inside the time lock nor Rassilon.

 

[Starkers]

Was that ever a serious consideration or just wishful thinking on the part of fans?

It was serious. Davies tells Benjamin Cook in The Writer's Tale that he was talking to Winslet's people about "Silence in the Library." And that he wanted Michael Gambon for the role Colin Salmon ultimately played.

In a way, we're better off that RTD ultimately didn't cast Winslet, as I have great difficulty imagining Winslet reappearing on a semi-regular basis in seasons five and six. On the other hand, I think Winslet would have been utterly smashing as River Song.

Wow, I didn't know Gambon was also considered for that two-parter. Perhaps now that he has appeared on the show, there's some hope that Winslett might still appear in another role? But then, I'm still hoping Rachel Weisz will show up at some point since she's also a fan.

I think there was more hope of Winslet whilst RTD was in charge given that one of her first breaks was in the RTD scripted Dark Season.

I can't believe people are suggesting 11 is a more bloodthirsty Doctor than nine (or possibly 8) who (theoretically) killed every Dalek and Timelord, or 10, who inflicted an angry god's punishment on the Family of Blood before drowning the Racnoss babies...and as others have said, the First Doc was prepared to stave someone's head in, and the 7th manipulated everyone around him and called his companion an emotional cripple (ok he didn't mean it and he did it to save her, but I can't imagine it was anything Ace was ever going to forget)

Anyway, watched this again last night and loved it just as much as the first time.

 

[PorthosShadow]

It was serious. Davies tells Benjamin Cook in The Writer's Tale that he was talking to Winslet's people about "Silence in the Library." And that he wanted Michael Gambon for the role Colin Salmon ultimately played.

In a way, we're better off that RTD ultimately didn't cast Winslet, as I have great difficulty imagining Winslet reappearing on a semi-regular basis in seasons five and six. On the other hand, I think Winslet would have been utterly smashing as River Song.

Wow, I didn't know Gambon was also considered for that two-parter. Perhaps now that he has appeared on the show, there's some hope that Winslett might still appear in another role? But then, I'm still hoping Rachel Weisz will show up at some point since she's also a fan.

I think there was more hope of Winslet whilst RTD was in charge given that one of her first breaks was in the RTD scripted Dark Season.

I can't believe people are suggesting 11 is a more bloodthirsty Doctor than nine (or possibly 8) who (theoretically) killed every Dalek and Timelord, or 10, who inflicted an angry god's punishment on the Family of Blood before drowning the Racnoss babies...and as others have said, the First Doc was prepared to stave someone's head in, and the 7th manipulated everyone around him and called his companion an emotional cripple (ok he didn't mean it and he did it to save her, but I can't imagine it was anything Ace was ever going to forget)

Anyway, watched this again last night and loved it just as much as the first time.

So from someone who is well versed in classic Doctor Who, is it safe to say that Matt Smith's Doctor is probably the most sane?

 

[Chris3123]

It would also look awful. The Tennant era wasn't filmed in high-def. We'd end up with something that looks like the classic Doctor Who with some scenes looking video-tapey and some scenes looking sharper on film.

Oh, I thought Tennant's last Series (Plus the Specials) was filmed in HD?

Everything from Waters of Mars onwards was filmed in HD.

Planet of the Dead was the first, actually.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

Oh, I thought Tennant's last Series (Plus the Specials) was filmed in HD?

Everything from Waters of Mars onwards was filmed in HD.

Planet of the Dead was the first, actually.

Oh yeah, I mixed up which came first.

 

[JoeZhang]

This is a feeling I've had about Matt Smith's Doctor since "The 11th Hour" and there is nothing specific I can point to. But his Doctor feels far more dangerous than the previous ten.

Hartnell's Doctor was a right bastard; right in "An Unearthly Child" he wants to kill one of Tribe of Gum by smashing his head with a rock.

In "Evil of the Daleks," Troughton's Doctor did to the Daleks what Smith's Doctor did to the Silents -- turn their own plan against them.

The Doctor's pacifism really only settles in with Pertwee, and I think it's because Pertwee represented an alternative to the military viewpoint of the Brig.

McCoy's Doctor was a manipulative bastard, but he liked to keep his hands clean of his dirty work.

Smith seems to hearken back to Hartnell and Troughton.

And Davison's Doctor asphyxiates a Cyberleader and blasts another with a gun.

 

[Starkers]

Wow, I didn't know Gambon was also considered for that two-parter. Perhaps now that he has appeared on the show, there's some hope that Winslett might still appear in another role? But then, I'm still hoping Rachel Weisz will show up at some point since she's also a fan.

I think there was more hope of Winslet whilst RTD was in charge given that one of her first breaks was in the RTD scripted Dark Season.

I can't believe people are suggesting 11 is a more bloodthirsty Doctor than nine (or possibly 8) who (theoretically) killed every Dalek and Timelord, or 10, who inflicted an angry god's punishment on the Family of Blood before drowning the Racnoss babies...and as others have said, the First Doc was prepared to stave someone's head in, and the 7th manipulated everyone around him and called his companion an emotional cripple (ok he didn't mean it and he did it to save her, but I can't imagine it was anything Ace was ever going to forget)

Anyway, watched this again last night and loved it just as much as the first time.

So from someone who is well versed in classic Doctor Who, is it safe to say that Matt Smith's Doctor is probably the most sane?

Oh I'm not sure I'd go that far

 

[Starkers]

This is a feeling I've had about Matt Smith's Doctor since "The 11th Hour" and there is nothing specific I can point to. But his Doctor feels far more dangerous than the previous ten.

Hartnell's Doctor was a right bastard; right in "An Unearthly Child" he wants to kill one of Tribe of Gum by smashing his head with a rock.

In "Evil of the Daleks," Troughton's Doctor did to the Daleks what Smith's Doctor did to the Silents -- turn their own plan against them.

The Doctor's pacifism really only settles in with Pertwee, and I think it's because Pertwee represented an alternative to the military viewpoint of the Brig.

McCoy's Doctor was a manipulative bastard, but he liked to keep his hands clean of his dirty work.

Smith seems to hearken back to Hartnell and Troughton.

And Davison's Doctor asphyxiates a Cyberleader and blasts another with a gun.

That was self defence though

 

[matthunter]

They all burned to death. That's been explicitly established multiple times, most recently in "The End of Time, Part Two." The Time Lock is just a thing that kept the Time Lords from time traveling away before burning.

You mean the same episode where we saw inside the time lock, where many of the Time Lords were fine and dandy, just incredibly annoyed, and who very nearly broke free from said time lock because they were instead stuck in a moment of a time rather than dead?

That episode?

Where, you know, they were clearly alive?

Even though they were supposed to be dead?

But weren't.

Because, you know, they weren't.

Since, you know, they very nearly escaped and even interacted with the Doctor and the Master.

That one?

Is that the episode you're referring to, using it to claim just how dead the Time Lords are?

Really?

The Doctor saw them die (Dalek). What he didn't see was them attempt to escape that fate before it happened, but as they failed, they still died.

Think of the events of The End of Time as Tuesday morning. The Time Lords know the Doctor is planning to blow them all up on Tuesday afternoon. They instigate a plan to jump forward in time to a week next Thursday. This wouldn't normally be possible, since the War is Time Locked and travel outside it (its final "Event" is the bomb detonation) can't be done - unless they use a link (the Master) to pull themselves through.

Only they cock it up and are sent back to Tuesday, a few minutes after they left. Now the bomb's still going to go off, and they've pulled their only temporal link outside the Time Lock into the bubble with them. Doctor pushes the button, Time Lords explode. He can't go back because of the Time Lock... they can't get out. So they're "dead".

Now you could argue they might formulate a new plan of escape around Tuesday lunchtime that we haven't seen yet. But there's only so much of Tuesday they've got left, and no other link to the outside of the Lock. And they only had the Master as their link due to a time loop (they know about the drumbeat in the Master's head before they've put it there).

 

[Sci]

They all burned to death. That's been explicitly established multiple times, most recently in "The End of Time, Part Two." The Time Lock is just a thing that kept the Time Lords from time traveling away before burning.

You mean the same episode where we saw inside the time lock, where many of the Time Lords were fine and dandy, just incredibly annoyed, and who very nearly broke free from said time lock because they were instead stuck in a moment of a time rather than dead?

There was never anything indicating they were "stuck in a moment of time." The Time Lock prevents them from time traveling away from the time period in which they were living before burning to death. They almost found a way around that, but then the Doctor and the Master sent them back into the Time Lock, back to a point shortly before an earlier Doctor used a weapon called the Moment to burn them all. They're not more "clearly alive" today just because they time traveled in from a point before their deaths than Rose Tyler is "clearly alive" in the year 200100 just because she time traveled in from a point before her death.

Well, in Sci's defence, the Doctor still claims that he destroyed all the Time Lords when he knows that he didn't.

Yeah, he missed all one of them. That certainly makes for a viable species and completely invalidates the idea that the Doctor ended his own people.

They all burned to death. That's been explicitly established multiple times, most recently in "The End of Time, Part Two." The Time Lock is just a thing that kept the Time Lords from time traveling away before burning.

You mean the same episode where we saw inside the time lock, where many of the Time Lords were fine and dandy, just incredibly annoyed, and who very nearly broke free from said time lock because they were instead stuck in a moment of a time rather than dead?

That episode?

Where, you know, they were clearly alive?

Even though they were supposed to be dead?

But weren't.

Because, you know, they weren't.

Since, you know, they very nearly escaped and even interacted with the Doctor and the Master.

That one?

Is that the episode you're referring to, using it to claim just how dead the Time Lords are?

Really?

The Doctor saw them die (Dalek). What he didn't see was them attempt to escape that fate before it happened, but as they failed, they still died.

Think of the events of The End of Time as Tuesday morning. The Time Lords know the Doctor is planning to blow them all up on Tuesday afternoon. They instigate a plan to jump forward in time to a week next Thursday. This wouldn't normally be possible, since the War is Time Locked and travel outside it (its final "Event" is the bomb detonation) can't be done - unless they use a link (the Master) to pull themselves through.

Only they cock it up and are sent back to Tuesday, a few minutes after they left. Now the bomb's still going to go off, and they've pulled their only temporal link outside the Time Lock into the bubble with them. Doctor pushes the button, Time Lords explode. He can't go back because of the Time Lock... they can't get out. So they're "dead".

Now you could argue they might formulate a new plan of escape around Tuesday lunchtime that we haven't seen yet. But there's only so much of Tuesday they've got left, and no other link to the outside of the Lock. And they only had the Master as their link due to a time loop (they know about the drumbeat in the Master's head before they've put it there).

QFT.

 

[Mr Awe]

So from someone who is well versed in classic Doctor Who, is it safe to say that Matt Smith's Doctor is probably the most sane?

Sanity is relative but I'd say that both the 3rd and 5th were at least as sane as 11.

Mr Awe

 

[Alidar Jarok]

You mean the same episode where we saw inside the time lock, where many of the Time Lords were fine and dandy, just incredibly annoyed, and who very nearly broke free from said time lock because they were instead stuck in a moment of a time rather than dead?

I viewed that as being in a point in time before the final explosion. It was clear they were still fighting.

Anyway, it's also clear that some managed to escape - possibly before the time lock. Certainly, the Master got away. I'm still holding out home for some of the good ones too.

 

[Sindatur]

Caring About Life: Congratulations, you've picked up on a new aspect of the Doctor's personality that's slowly been building up for a while now. He's no longer afraid to kill if he needs to, especially in retribution for harming him or those he cares for (including the entire Human race). Where exactly this personality trait came from, I don't know. But I've noticed it since at least the end days of the 10th Doctor when he was going all "I'M A GOD!" crazy.

This is a feeling I've had about Matt Smith's Doctor since "The 11th Hour" and there is nothing specific I can point to. But his Doctor feels far more dangerous than the previous ten.

Well, since the Actor Matt Smith is younger than Tennant, who looked so young to River on his first meeting with her, this coldness is what shows up in his eyes as not being so young as Tennant, I believe

 

[Starkers]

So from someone who is well versed in classic Doctor Who, is it safe to say that Matt Smith's Doctor is probably the most sane?

Sanity is relative but I'd say that both the 3rd and 5th were at least as sane as 11.

Mr Awe

Funnily enough I was thinking that 3 and 5 were probably the sanest, maybe 8 as well, and I guess 7 was quite scarily rational at times!

 

[Sindatur]

So from someone who is well versed in classic Doctor Who, is it safe to say that Matt Smith's Doctor is probably the most sane?

Sanity is relative but I'd say that both the 3rd and 5th were at least as sane as 11.

Mr Awe

Funnily enough I was thinking that 3 and 5 were probably the sanest, maybe 8 as well, and I guess 7 was quite scarily rational at times!

Yea, 7 was rational, but, as you said, he was one manipulative sonofagun

I think his scheming and trying to fix past mistakes is why I have a greater affection for McCoy's era than many do

 

[Guartho]

Now you could argue they might formulate a new plan of escape around Tuesday lunchtime that we haven't seen yet. But there's only so much of Tuesday they've got left, and no other link to the outside of the Lock. And they only had the Master as their link due to a time loop (they know about the drumbeat in the Master's head before they've put it there).

Think of it this way though. If the Doctor were in the lock and facing certain doom, would you expect him to find a way out? Thanks to the End of Time events, the Master is now in the lock as well. The Master is almost the Doctor's equal. Therefore the Time Lords almost have a chance.

Sure, the master is royally pissed, but he's shown a propensity for making deals before, and he's holding all the cards. I will not be surprised to someday see the fledgling New Gallifreyan Empire birthed from the time lock with Emperor Master at its head and Rassilon hanging in the throne room in his Dobby cage.

 

[Checkmate]

There was never anything indicating they were "stuck in a moment of time."

Except, you know, that entire episode. Where they showed us that they were, in fact, stuck in a moment of time. Nevermind that the weapon was called "The Moment." Not "The Burn Them All To Death." Not "Eradicated Them From Time." But "The Moment." And nevermind that it was called a Time Lock not a Bloweded Them All Up Good Back in Time.

Kind of a small hint as to what it was.

Or is it also just a huge coincidence that they were locked at the exact same time that the Master was returned from the dead just in the nick of time to pick up the diamond they threw out of the lock? Which all just happened to occur at the exact moment before the Doctor actually locke---err, sorry, "blew them all up."

We'll just ignore what the events were actually called and instead go with some dense, one-dimensional view of it that doesn't make any sense or fit into anything they've seen about the actual event. Nope, the Doctor blewed them up real good, forever and ever! At a cunning moment in time right when the Master was also being resurrected from the dead. And, you know, him completely not noticing that all of Gallifrey was nowhere to be seen seconds before he activated the Time Lock or used "The Burn Them All To Death" weapon.

I bet he has some egg on his face.

The Time Lock prevents them from time traveling away from the time period in which they were living before burning to death.

It's amazing how much time they had to plan, plot, and scheme to avoid that then. And, you know, time travel. And space travel. And send things out through space and time, except that they didn't because it was occurring at that exact moment in time apparently. And actually move the entire planet. All without the Doctor noticing as he blew them up... which apparently occurred at some future date.

It also must have taken him forever to set up The Mome... err, "The Bomb That Burned Everyone Up" after locking them in time. Since, again, they had so much time to plot and scheme in the time-lock-that-wasn't-a-time-lock.

 

[Photoman15]

You mean the same episode where we saw inside the time lock, where many of the Time Lords were fine and dandy, just incredibly annoyed, and who very nearly broke free from said time lock because they were instead stuck in a moment of a time rather than dead?

I viewed that as being in a point in time before the final explosion. It was clear they were still fighting.

Anyway, it's also clear that some managed to escape - possibly before the time lock. Certainly, the Master got away. I'm still holding out home for some of the good ones too.

The Master got away because he FOB'd himself (into Prof Yana) before the Moment. He was recruited to fight, saw something coming (maybe he knows about/what the Moment is and it affects Timelords and Daleks (or was set to affect only them), so the Chameleon Arch rewrote his biology to be (human) Yana.

 

[PorthosShadow]

You mean the same episode where we saw inside the time lock, where many of the Time Lords were fine and dandy, just incredibly annoyed, and who very nearly broke free from said time lock because they were instead stuck in a moment of a time rather than dead?

I viewed that as being in a point in time before the final explosion. It was clear they were still fighting.

Anyway, it's also clear that some managed to escape - possibly before the time lock. Certainly, the Master got away. I'm still holding out home for some of the good ones too.

The Master got away because he FOB'd himself (into Prof Yana) before the Moment. He was recruited to fight, saw something coming (maybe he knows about/what the Moment is and it affects Timelords and Daleks (or was set to affect only them), so the Chameleon Arch rewrote his biology to be (human) Yana.

Since the new series began in 2005, I've always held the belief that The Time Lords in whole or part managed to escape "the moment" but obviously on the whole, I was wrong. However, I have to believe that beyond The Master and The Doctor, more had to survive. I just find it very difficult to believe that the masters of time and space for billions of years could be so easily locked away.

 

[Starkers]

I think he deduced the only way to defeat the Daleks would entail destroying the Timelords as well, so he scarpered. I'm not sure whether he had any long term plan or not but presumably he envisaged being the Master again.

Given the Master, Davros, the Emperor, the Cult of Skaro, the Dalek from "Dalek" as well as a whole heap of other Daleks survived the Timewar, I still find the notion that no other Timelords survived unlikely. If Moffat or another showrunner wants to bring them back he (or she) will, irrespective of Time Locks, moments or anything else...