Seriously, I think they shouldn't have used Quark on the promo material.
Why didn't DS9 capture a large audience like all the other Treks?
- Thread starter ReadyAndWilling
- Start date
They did, at least around here on occasion when they were advertising all the 'bald aliens' a local channel would feature (B5 and Earth: Final Conflict were included in that promo).
ReadyAndWilling
Fleet Captain
yah, i agree, DS9 had much better character depth than any other Trek, but why didn't achieve mainstream success? everyone can pick out Picard, Kirk, Spock and even Data, but nobody knows any of the characters from DS9.
It's not much more complicated than that in essence.
When you refer to a "fractured fan base," that's addressing the interest level of people who were viewers of previous Star Trek. To the extent that new viewers sampled the new DS9 series - and the ratings for the premiere movie and early episodes indicate that a great many people did - if the show is appealing enough that would obviate the attrition of existing viewers. So we're back to "not enough who sampled..."
"A less ideal time slot" would be relevant, that's true, but it's hard to measure that because every station that showed DS9 and TNG had a free choice (within an eight-day window) about where to schedule the shows - they were in first-run syndication and there was no network involved. In some some places DS9 took over TNG's old slot; in some they ran back-to-back; in some DS9 replaced TNG in its time slot when that show folded after a couple more years. I'm sure that in some DS9 received an inferior time slot, but we're talking something in the range of 200 stations making 200 individual decisions over a period of seven years.
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I was thinking less of the fan base and more of the audience in general. Mainly that more programming was beginning to compete for the same number of eyeballs, due to the rise in cable programming and many more shows being first run syndicated. In that context, it makes perfect sense for ratings to decrease.
Quite true. In my area of the Pacific Northwest, DS9 took over TNG's timeslot for the duration of its run. Other people seem to have had a different experience. It's hard to tell what was the norm, given the way the syndication market worked. I wonder how easy it would be to find out this information, outside of anecdotal evidence?
I think the premise is why it didn't catch on. DS9 is a very different show from TNG and not everyone who liked TNG was going to like DS9. And right off the bat DS9 assumes you've seen TNG. It's possible to come into DS9 with no previous knowledge of Star Trek but you'll be at a disadvantage and novices generally didn't want to be bothered with it, so DS9 was largely stuck with TNG fans who were interested in both series.
That's just the first season. In later seasons, you'd have TNG fans who had lost interest in Star Trek after having watched it so long, which would affect only DS9 and VOY since TNG was already over by this point; and you'd have the Roddenberry fans who didn't like the direction DS9 was taking by heading into the Dominion War. I remember complaints about that from message boards in the '90s.
This, along with time slots, led to DS9's audience being halved by the end of the first season and quartered by the end of the series.
That's just the first season. In later seasons, you'd have TNG fans who had lost interest in Star Trek after having watched it so long, which would affect only DS9 and VOY since TNG was already over by this point; and you'd have the Roddenberry fans who didn't like the direction DS9 was taking by heading into the Dominion War. I remember complaints about that from message boards in the '90s.
This, along with time slots, led to DS9's audience being halved by the end of the first season and quartered by the end of the series.
I tried to have people post something like this but a lot of people 'round these forums were not first-run viewers. Now, it seems unlikely DS9 would be moved around season to season all across its run. DS9 was the 1st-3rd best first-run syndicated series (that wasn't a game show or judge show) all the time, so it got the most choice timeslots for syndicated shows (unless it was underperforming in a market). It was probably moved once, perhaps even twice, but it's going to be more stable than being bounced around season to season (like some lower rated shows were, but those didn't last too long). In my tv market back in the '90s, syndicated shows usually weren't shifted around wildly, though they were in the big mid 90s network realignment.
You know, I wish some website out there would catalog this kind of information for major markets and set up a huge virtual calendar using tv guides which still exist for across tv history to reassemble the schedule people saw. My curiosity over which shows were supposed to air from 11/22/63- 11/25/63 made me wish something like this existed. Imagine being able to click day by day in 1964 or 1967, being able to see what other episodes were on the day a Star Trek episode premiered, to see what its competition was (with one line episode synopsises), likewise with the Munsters or Addams Family. Sometimes classic shows were put up against one another. I've done this by comparing episode dates between Twilight Zone and Route 66 (companion shows for 3 1/2 seasons), seeing TNG/DS9 air dates, Hercules/Xena air dates, etc. I also got the Easter listing to see which episodes aired Easter weekend.
For local markets' syndication, that can basically be defined to a narrow window of the late '80s thru 2002-4 or so. In fact, all that would be needed is a list of the shows and a clickable index of their affiliates... and more tediously, a tv guide or two from every tv season to see where it was on the schedule. In my market, DS9 shifted from Sunday to Saturday because WB claimed the station and the day (I'm foggy on if the move was before the 94-95 season, during it, or after it. I know Hercules took its timeslot and Vanishing Son too, but don't know if DS9 was shifted an hour or two earlier or moved to Sat then).
Something to remember is PTEN, the syndication package that masqueraded like a network (that sounds like a monster movie. Pten! The Beast that Walked like a Network!), famous for Babylon 5, less so for Kung Fu: TLC, and not known for Time Trax or LOL Pointman, had specific requirements on when its shows aired (usually Tues or Wed nights) during the 92-93, 93-94, 94-95 seasons... unless their affiliate was a Fox affiliate, then they could air it whenever. PTEN took 2 slots a week before UPN & WB came along and the sequence of network takeover was:
(Fox had everynight by the 92-93 season)
94-95- UPN takes Mon, WB takes Wed
95-96- UPN takes Tue, WB takes Sun
96-97- UPN takes Wed, WB takes Mon
97-98- WB takes Tue
and so on from there
X-Files, on Friday from 93-96 was such a huge hit, programming against it was suicide (my local market tried to put Hercules/Xena on at 7 & 8PM Friday... they shifted them midseason), especially during the 94-95 & 95-96 seasons on Fridays. That means that while UPN or WB didn't claim Friday until almost to 2000, it was not a good night to program syndication for because Fox had its own sci-fi/horror-ish night and it won the night there for that kind of content.
ReadyAndWilling
Fleet Captain
man, the 90's seem like it was yesterday.
it's funny hearing how the fans back then disliked the war when now everybody thinks the war was the most fascinating part.
Well, there were camps. There were the hardcore Niners, and DS9 was being compared in all directions. It was compared to its sister series TNG and VOY while also being compared to B5.
DS9 was, and still is, disliked by people for the same exact reasons others like it. DS9 seems like a series with not a lot of middle ground.
On the boards, the Dominion War would be compared to World War II but I now see more foreshadowing of the War on Terror. I actually think DS9, especially the second half, fits in better with the '00s than the '90s.
DS9 was, and still is, disliked by people for the same exact reasons others like it. DS9 seems like a series with not a lot of middle ground.
On the boards, the Dominion War would be compared to World War II but I now see more foreshadowing of the War on Terror. I actually think DS9, especially the second half, fits in better with the '00s than the '90s.
If one of the biggest complaints for not watching it originally was "They're not on a Starship".
Yeah, that's pretty narrow minded.
DS9 didn't capture a large audience because Trek has a limited fanbase to begin with.
TNG success was due to it being a fad.
TNG itself didn't get big until "BOBW", one of the first cliffhangers to rival "Who's Shot J.R.?"
It was due to that, TNG gained popularity. That's what got the casual audience to watch.
The casual audience didn't give a damn about DS9 because they were never core Trek fans to begin with.
The numbers Voyager pulled are probably closer to how big the actual true core fanbase of Trek is.
No Trek spin off was ever going to re-capture the casual audience because they had moved onto the next fad, Xena. All Treks spin offs were doing at this point was running it into the ground hoping lightening would strike twice.
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We're talking about tracking something like 200 markets over seven years - and for the assessment to mean anything we'd need fairly extensive season-by-season ratings data to go with that (did a particular time shift increase or decrease the show's performance in a certain market - otherwise we're still making big assumptions).
Simply, unlike the other Star Trek programs, DS9 took place on a space station instead of a starship.
In short, it doesn't go anywhere so that action has to come to it.
Although the same can be said about Babylon 5, yet I feel B5 was a much better series than DS9 (based on a strong storyline with cliffhanger episodes that kept you coming back).
In short, it doesn't go anywhere so that action has to come to it.
Although the same can be said about Babylon 5, yet I feel B5 was a much better series than DS9 (based on a strong storyline with cliffhanger episodes that kept you coming back).
So it's "Star Trek", but without the trekking part. Hmm, nothing unusual there.
Well, TNG Season 1-3 had ratings in the 9-11 point range, not exactly weak ratings (and Season 2... I wonder what the across the board affect of the writers strike was on ratings. TNG premiered in late Nov, missing Nov sweeps and aired several episodes in late June and well into July, which would drag down the overall season average compared to an Oct-May + 2 in June season). And I would not constitute something which, even by your standards of getting big in Season 4, was a hit for 4 seasons "a fad". Fads last 1 season, 2 season tops. When you get upward to 4 or 5 years, calling it a fad is a stretch. It has enduring appeal. And TNG's ratings grew over Season 3; BOBW didn't magically get it a huge audience, it was building that audience gradually over many episodes. BOBW did get it hype (despite Part 1 having unremarkable ratings vs. the rest of the Spring 90 episodes) and that would help to get more people tuning in in Season 4, but the big trend started before BOBW.
Don't forget some Trek fans absolutely hated Voyager, even those who weren't fans of DS9.
And I like this statement. So, VOY had more true core Trek fans then DS9. Ok, so why then did DS9 beat out VOY week after week for the entire time they shared a run except for part of early 1995? If you say VOY was representative of the Trek core audience and casuals didn't give a damn about DS9, why then did DS9 have higher ratings than Voyager? Only in Bizarro-World does your argument make sense.
DS9 did lose the #1 in syndication (among non-game/talk/judge shows) to Hercules, then Xena, and DS9 was usually in 3rd, though took back #1 for a while in 98-99. That fad might explain lower ratings in 95 & 95-96, 96-97 (when Xena's ratings were growing) but it wouldn't explain DS9's declining ratings before then or when Herc/Xena/DS9 all had their ratings sliding. TNG did have a sizeable casual audience but the casuals certainly didn't just move on to Xena (you have a 1 season gap there and Xena's ratings were decent but not stellar in Season 1 [95-96]). Casuals don't move in a pack like that, they scatter and the "casual audience" following a show at any given time, particularly a hit, is assembled from all over the tv spectrum.
Well, there are DS9's ratings listed out there and one can determine when the overall cable ratings drain started if the whole syndicated market's ratings were averaged. Has anyone at places like Tv by the Numbers actually codify the season by season decline in broadcast tv ratings to get a sense of how long cable has been notably draining ratings and when that trend was accelerating.
I do know Hercules & Xena's ratings peaked in Feb 1997 and it was downhill ever since and Feb 1997 was DS9's last big unprovoked surge up (besides the retaking of DS9/wedding, and finale of course). Ratings slid lower and lower for all those shows and other syndicated shows over 97-98, 98-99, 99-00. SG-1 did go upward a bit after premiering in synd in 98, but it was nothing compared to how synd shows grew from their premiere in previous seasons (like Xena & Hercules). Just based on seeing the rating for these 3 shows from 95-99 and seeing the overall bar go lower and lower and new synd shows have trouble breaking over 3.0, I can guess cable was having a definitive effect in the 97-99 seasons.
And a hidden factor, which viewers would be more aware of in the market than outside of is pre-emptions. How often was a show pre-empted? DS9 was pre-empted by baseball (April-June) and/or basketball (Nov-April) in some markets. I do know DS9, Hercules, Xena all faced "spring slumps" (VOY too actually. I've heard the NYC or Boston UPN affiliate pre-empted for baseball during VOY's run), which would seem to support baseball being a big pre-empter while basketball was not (as Nov-April didn't show big relative slumps year after year to other seasons, and the mid-late '90s was the height of basketball's popularity. While baseball was at a nadir then due to the strike, until the steroid fueled home run races, it was still a big ratings force, still the solid #2 in US sports).
I could go with my experience, at the time of the show started I was only a kid and Babylon 5 was on tv.
Season 1 and 2 I didn't even see, season 3, honestly I can't remember that i've seen season 3 either, first episode of DS9 that i've seen was Way of the Warrior.
I wasn't hard core star trek fan than, I had little or no interests in politics and generally I wasn't paying too much attention to things around me.
Only when I started watching STNG and other star trek shows did I became more of a fan (mid 90s).
Right now I love DS9 and other star trek shows, even Enterprise (I know there are some who hate it) and I am a firm believer in better future as a result of watching Star Trek.
DS9 as a show was made with lower budget than other trek shows but made more impact on me due to socio-ethic issues that show exposed, A Black Captain, fame fatal 2nd in charge, war and imperialism and other aspects we are all concerned in our daily lives.
Show was a true eye opener for me. Episode in which Sisko goes back in time (1950s) and experiences racism and ignorance, bigotry and hate at every corner brought me to tears first time I saw it as I knew that many to this say experience similar bigotry across the globe.That being said I love the show and it is one of my favorite star trek and sci fi shows ever!!!
Season 1 and 2 I didn't even see, season 3, honestly I can't remember that i've seen season 3 either, first episode of DS9 that i've seen was Way of the Warrior.
I wasn't hard core star trek fan than, I had little or no interests in politics and generally I wasn't paying too much attention to things around me.
Only when I started watching STNG and other star trek shows did I became more of a fan (mid 90s).
Right now I love DS9 and other star trek shows, even Enterprise (I know there are some who hate it) and I am a firm believer in better future as a result of watching Star Trek.
DS9 as a show was made with lower budget than other trek shows but made more impact on me due to socio-ethic issues that show exposed, A Black Captain, fame fatal 2nd in charge, war and imperialism and other aspects we are all concerned in our daily lives.
Show was a true eye opener for me. Episode in which Sisko goes back in time (1950s) and experiences racism and ignorance, bigotry and hate at every corner brought me to tears first time I saw it as I knew that many to this say experience similar bigotry across the globe.That being said I love the show and it is one of my favorite star trek and sci fi shows ever!!!
I'm not sure why a black captain was such a big deal. If this was supposed to be the future, and humanity can finally live with itself, nobody should be making a big deal about it.
On an unrelated note, I've never heard anyone call Kira a femme fatale...
On an unrelated note, I've never heard anyone call Kira a femme fatale...
ReadyAndWilling
Fleet Captain
which episode did sisqo go back in time?
Sisko, Bashir and Dax went back to 2020's San Francisco in the third season two-parter Past Tense.
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Past_Tense_(Star_Trek:_Deep_Space_Nine)
He didn't actually go back in time, but in Far Beyond the Stars Sisko was given a vision by the Prophets where he took on the role of Benny Russell, a struggling black science-fiction writer in the 1950s
As a matter of fact, he did travel back in the early 21st century in "Past Tense Part I"
